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Jun Mizutani serves

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    Posted: 04/17/2017 at 7:26am
Always knew that Mizutani had good serves, but I just gained a tremendous amount of respect for his serves after watching this video. Look at the insane kicks that his serves have, it would be an absolute nightmare for any opponent...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2017 at 4:26pm
Nothing special. Sidespin serves are easy to read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 8:31am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Nothing special. Sidespin serves are easy to read.

I don't think Jun's serve is that easy to read...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 10:11am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Nothing special. Sidespin serves are easy to read.

I don't think Jun's serve is that easy to read...

When I serve backspin, people read it as backspin, doesn't mean they don't put it in the net anyways.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 10:58am
As soon as you are on the other side of a serve from a professional player -- any professional player really -- you suddenly see that things are not so easy to read as it seems like it should be.  Any player in the top 10 in the world?  Their serves are special.  Always.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 11:07am
I played doubles against Karakasevic several years ago and let me tell you it was damn hard to return his serves! Like Baal said, when you're out there with a professional player it's not as easy as it looks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 12:02pm
The best serves I probably faced were from CNT player Wei Quinquang when hidden serves were allowed. Holy smokes! He was lefty and hid the contact with his body. The ball came out like it was shot from a robopong speed level 10, either to the left corner or extreme angle wide right. By the time your brain could react to which side, it was too late. Even when I returned his serve, it only set up an easy 3rd ball.
That experience provided me with more insight for the rationale behind the hidden serve rule.

I also recall a North American teams tournament where a Chinese player (forget his name) known for his serves faced a mere mortal USA player in an early round. I was amazed that a 2000 level player could misread a backspin serve so badly that the ball bounced twice before reaching the net.


Edited by heavyspin - 04/18/2017 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 12:32pm
I have tried to return Thomas Keinath's serves.  They look straightforward.  They aren't!  There is a funny video at Table Tennis Daily where Dan (who is a really solid player) tried to see how many of 10 of Per Gerell's serves he could even return on the other side of the table (and we are not talking about a good return).  I think the number ended up 2 or 3.

I've returned serves from many high level American players (who aren't anywhere near the level of top pros in the world).  All of these guys who have been 2500+ have incredibly deceptive serves I think. The nastiest from an American resident was lefty Viktor Subonj in the hidden serve era, which was about the way Heavyspin just described.  The ball would emerge from somewhere under his arm and he could put it anywhere on the table, fast or slow, with a whole range of spins.  The hidden serve rule hurt him a lot, he had to change his whole motion.  In those days, I spent a lot of time working with him to learn to do that.  And just like that, poof!  No more.   

The thing about JM's serves is you don't have the luxury of guessing the spin after they have bounced on your side of the table 2 or 3 times, you have to get it right in real time after the first bounce, keep it low and put it in the right place where he isn't winning the point on the very next shot.  Also, while looking from the front where all the disguise is, not from the back.  Yeah, there is a lot of sidespin on some of them, but what else is there?  That is what will make you mess up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Nothing special. Sidespin serves are easy to read.

Most players add sidespin in serves for 2 main reasons: (1) to make serve short and more important (2) to disguise (side-) topspin and (side-) backspin serves better by making their trajectories seem more similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2017 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:


Nothing special. Sidespin serves are easy to read.


Most players add sidespin in serves for 2 main reasons: (1) to make serve short and more important (2) to disguise (side-) topspin and (side-) backspin serves better by making their trajectories seem more similar.

I think there are a couple of other important factors. It limits the placement options of the returner (without taking risks) and makes the likely return spots more predictable. Some people are also more susceptible to sidespin in one direction rather than the other, which is why I think it is so useful to have both the pendulum and reverse pendulum serve. I know I hated the short reverse pendulum to my forehand
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 3:28am
Someone posted a video of Brian Pace versus Fang Bo a while back.

Pace dumped about half of Fang's serves into the net. One serve receive landed about two feet short of the net. It shows the huge jump in serve quality at the top of the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTHOUSTON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2017 at 11:18am
I read some article some where before, the Chinese player like to serve short and side top spin often than underspin. The reason they like serve short and side topspin because the opponent can't return short and they ready to attack the third ball.
Trying to copy the professional serve we always look at the back his serve then we can read the spin and motion more easier than in the front and that is a reason why you see Mizutani always practice serve short and side topspin more than underspin. 


Edited by TTHOUSTON - 04/22/2017 at 11:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2017 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by TTHOUSTON TTHOUSTON wrote:

I read some article some where before, the Chinese player like to serve short and side top spin often than underspin. The reason they like serve short and side topspin because the opponent can't return short and they ready to attack the third ball.
Trying to copy the professional serve we always look at the back his serve then we can read the spin and motion more easier than in the front and that is a reason why you see Mizutani always practice serve short and side topspin more than underspin. 

I think it depends on the opponent... against a player with a dangerous BH banana flip, serving side-topspin could be an invitation for trouble. He does practice a lot of side-underspin serves too in the video (the ones that jump back to the net!). There is a significant difference in trajectories between his side-under and side-topspin serves. I also wonder why he doesn't use his hook serve more often in actual matches, it looks pretty solid to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2017 at 7:25am
Originally posted by TTHOUSTON TTHOUSTON wrote:

I read some article some where before, the Chinese player like to serve short and side top spin often than underspin. The reason they like serve short and side topspin because the opponent can't return short and they ready to attack the third ball.
Trying to copy the professional serve we always look at the back his serve then we can read the spin and motion more easier than in the front and that is a reason why you see Mizutani always practice serve short and side topspin more than underspin. 

This is what I follow. If you want to 3rd ball attack regularly then these spinny short side-topspin serves are amazing.

Obviously the fact that these new balls are less spinny means that the serves lose a bit of their spin, but that does make the 3rd ball easier to execute / more reproducible to loop or slap.

If someone's good enough that they can win a hefty chunk of points against me if I'm opening proceedings with a loop, chances are I'm totally outclassed and won't win anyways [or i'm playing a chopper, in which case its a wash]

For everyone else, well, no-one likes being smashed and looped to the face!

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