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Was the new ball designed to sell composite blades

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icontek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was the new ball designed to sell composite blades
    Posted: 04/19/2017 at 10:59am
A little background first: I left the sport right around the time of the introduction of the plastic ball. I was playing at a low intermediate level with offense minus all wood equipment and medium speed rubbers that produced good spin.

When I returned to the game roughly 4 years later, the plastic ball issues still had not been sorted out. Most of my experience in this area is with the xushaofa balls, but I play a fair bit with nittaku premium plastic balls as well.

Here's what I've noticed:
Faster blades, which produced often erratic and Squirrley results with the celluloid ball and less than perfect technique seem to be much more viable and easier to control with both the Nittaku and the XSF.

A US1900 veteran I play with insists that the majority of the all wood ALL to OFF blades are now obsolete, because their passive power for blocking is so low and because their aggressive power when attacking does not result in point ending speed.

Anecdotally, I've see that my 3rd ball attacks with an OFF- wood blade are now being returned, something that rarely if ever happened in the celluloid era.

If you look at my post history, you'll see that for years I have advocated slower controllable blades for both developing and low intermediate levels of play, leaving OFF and OFF+ blades to the US2000 and above crowd.

I mention this because during club play I was able to pickup a Sardius with T05 and Rasant and play with it with no loss of control or consistency. That would have been a stupid thing to do with celluloid, I would have struggled to keep balls in play, even when I was spending 4 to 6 hours a week practicing.

Was the original aim of the plastic ball to make so much of the OFF+ blade inventory sitting on TT shop shelves viable for sale to more players?

Is it simply because these balls spin less that there is less variation and therefore a greater tolerance to fast blades?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 11:34am
Miu Hirano claimed the ATTC singles title, which played with the Nittaku Premium 40+, using the Clipper Wood. The vanilla version, no CR, no WRB.

I played with the DHS D40+ using the TSP Swat, a 7-ply all-wood, and it felt great.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 11:55am
I've switched from a 7ply carbon blade to a 5-ply allround and it feels great with the NP40+ and XSF 40+ balls. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote photino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 12:16pm
It's better to say that the new ball is to sell fast blades instead of composite blades

Wood blades can be very fast. 1-ply pure wood KTS/RSM is faster than most composite blades.
but old style 5-ply are too slow nowadays. recent 5-ply blades on market are made faster than those before by using hard materials like rosewood. 

7-ply are still good, but probably changed from OFF+ to OFF. Clipper wood was used by Liu Guoliang's short pips fast attack style, now it's more a weapon for looping. 
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Baal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 12:17pm
I always played with composite blades (well, for a long time anyway) but I noticed a lot of people where I play adopted composite blades after the 40+ came out.

I have some conspiracy theories about the transition to plastic but I hadn't thought about this one.  I wouldn't entirely exclude it.  After all, the increase in ball size was not something that had to happen because you want to switch materials! It is not obvious why ITTF suddenly got the religious inspiration to make sure that all the balls were > 40 mm!   They didn't really care for decades before that if the balls were a few tenths of a mm smaller than the rules.  Why suddenly in 2014?  And a lot of what we see with all of these plastic balls is due to their greater size and weight compared to celluloid.

So.  Maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 12:29pm
The seamless ball actually bounces higher than celluloid. As such, it plays faster than celluloid. That was what the 40+ was originally conceived to be, until greed got between DHS/DFish and Zhang Huilun, the inventor of the seamless ball. At that point, the entire plan went pear-shaped, leading to plan B, if we can even call it one - the cellulose acetate, which was a complete disaster.

Sharara thought it was a good chance to also increase the size as well, so that they're real 40mm balls. When in fact, it is more likely that he wanted to slip the size increase in with the material change in one go so that people would find it easier to swallow.

Edited by zeio - 04/19/2017 at 12:32pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 2:32pm
Yes. The aim of all changes is to artificially increase the price of ping pong equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gekogark1212 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 2:44pm
What does an Aussie TT fanboy do at 4 am in the morning? Discuss equipment issues of course!

I have given this question a long thought also, and I have sadly had to let go of my YE, my Violin, and even Ovt Senso 1 simply because as the OP mentioned, I could have the same level of attack but with improved passive blocking with the composite fibres in the blade.

Now I would still consider myself an intermediate player at ~2000 level, but I'm definitely finding myself having to block far more often in this new era than with celluloid. Simply due to losses in spin and the ease of that new banana flipping business. It allows the receiver so much initiative and then the attacking loops keep coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 2:57pm
The old fat geezer Adam Shalala must have received lots of money from certain brands

Edited by ChichoFicho - 04/19/2017 at 2:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hidasjoki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 3:49pm
I've always wondered what would be uncovered if the ITTF was hit with the same sort of investigations and raids that FIFA went through....LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 8:00pm
http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.old.ittf.com/museum/TTC66.pdf

1902 PING-PONG- Worldwide Pandemia is on.
Just pastime or medical issue maybe?

March 1902 . It is reported by the Tatler magazine
-- Factory in Essex, England, turned out 6 tons balls of celluloid (some 2 billion pieces) per week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:


A US1900 veteran I play with insists that the majority of the all wood ALL to OFF blades are now obsolete, because their passive power for blocking is so low and because their aggressive power when attacking does not result in point ending speed.

Balderdash!

I play hardbat with a super-slow blade (ZeroPong Zebra Classic).  The rubber I use (Dr. Evil) is pretty darned slow as well. I'm also a 1900-ish player, and I somehow manage to hit winners past inverted players that are at my level and above.  

The most important thing for hitting past a player is to be on balance so that you have choices of where to go then to procede to make good placement choices. Speed is nice, but it isn't the be-all-end-all.

And yes, the NP40+ and the D40+ are a bit slower off the bounce than the XSF.  And all of the 40+ balls are a bit slower than the celluloid 40s in flight..  So you could make an argument that going with a faster rubber or blade might make sense.  It seems logical. But for the vast majority of us who play at a sub-national-team level, what we really need more than anything else is to improve our techniques.  

After the last U.S. Open, I was fairly convinced that the slower ball was going to force me to use a faster hardbat rubber, blade, or both.  I spent about two months trying it out.  It really wasn't working out well.  So I went back to my slower setup and focused on technique.  The result was an immediate bump up from the rut I'd fallen into.  And later on, I've had a few people ask me unprompted what I've done to improve my game. 

The ball change has slowed the game down.  But the reality is that the change is relatively subtle.  It isn't dramatic.  IMO, the changes we need to make as players in order to accommodate the new ball are also pretty subtle.


Edited by wturber - 04/19/2017 at 8:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monster23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

The old fat geezer Adam Shalala must have received lots of money from certain brands

The excuse for banning celluloid ball is just bull****.
The reason for changing the ball frequently is so manufacturers 
can can keep selling their new rubbers and blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by monster23 monster23 wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

The old fat geezer Adam Shalala must have received lots of money from certain brands

The excuse for banning celluloid ball is just bull****.
The reason for changing the ball frequently is so manufacturers 
can can keep selling their new rubbers and blades.

Perhaps.  OTOH, there's Hanlon's razor.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2017 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by monster23 monster23 wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

The old fat geezer Adam Shalala must have received lots of money from certain brands

The excuse for banning celluloid ball is just bull****.
The reason for changing the ball frequently is so manufacturers 
can can keep selling their new rubbers and blades.

Perhaps.  OTOH, there's Hanlon's razor.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly.  But... the failure to apply Hanlon's razor results in the wild statements that get posted here and elsewhere.    Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 1:38am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:


The old fat geezer Adam Shalala must have received lots of money from certain brands


you cant get good things from a player who was nobody.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hungry cow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:36am

[/QUOTE]

Balderdash!

I play hardbat with a super-slow blade (ZeroPong Zebra Classic).  The rubber I use (Dr. Evil) is pretty darned slow as well. I'm also a 1900-ish player, and I somehow manage to hit winners past inverted players that are at my level and above.  

[/QUOTE]

When the ball change was made I was playing an attacking hardbat game with a slow 3 ply Hock and Dr. Evil and found my level went up slightly with the plastic balls as I could still attack just as hard and it took just a bit off of my opponents shots.

I have now gone to a sponge game and play with an All+ / off - old stiga Bengtsson blade with H3 Neo, not at all a fast setup and have all the power I like for a two winged looping game.  I am only a 1500 level player but never ever feel like I lose a point from lack of speed.  If I lose points its because of bad strategy, bad footwork, bad timing, bad short game, or my own inconsistency.  Never ever have I felt like I lost a point from lack of power or speed due to my equipment or the plastic ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by monster23 monster23 wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

The old fat geezer Adam Shalala must have received lots of money from certain brands

The excuse for banning celluloid ball is just bull****.
The reason for changing the ball frequently is so manufacturers 
can can keep selling their new rubbers and blades.

Perhaps.  OTOH, there's Hanlon's razor.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly.  But... the failure to apply Hanlon's razor results in the wild statements that get posted here and elsewhere.    Unhappy

The default state of a bureaucrat is to always minimise exposure by making safe, small, incremental changes (if any), and if a big change is required, it will be very carefully thought out and implemented - and later rather than sooner, especially if there's no pressure to act. To go out on a wing and a prayer with changes that have massive impact and making excuses off the cuff can only be explained in one way - the man is on the take. No bureaucrat in their right mind does that without an ulterior motive, not even the stupid ones. You're free to give him the benefit of the doubt, but to call this theory 'wild' just shows what a gullible person you are.


Edited by Lestat - 04/20/2017 at 8:34pm
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