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Is Tenergy factory boosted?

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Matt Pimple View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 11:44am
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

This post seems strange to me. This rubber has been out almost 10 years and now people think it is has some secret special tuner that lasts the whole life of the rubber and can't be detected.

I used to play with T05 couple of years as well and it's definitely bouncier right out of the package. For me it used to last about 4 month or so when the sponge lost its "springiness" so I would reboost it and it played again almost like new for another 6 weeks after which it was kind of dead. So it definitely doesn't have something (whatever it is, booster or some other magic) that lasts for the life of the rubber. It is still quite spinny after a long time but the sponge is definitely dead. This, to me, points more towards factory applied booster. And who says you can't detect it? Have you tried? Did you send a new T05 to an analytical lab?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:


I used to play with T05 couple of years as well and it's definitely bouncier right out of the package. For me it used to last about 4 month or so when the sponge lost its "springiness" so I would reboost it and it played again almost like new for another 6 weeks after which it was kind of dead. So it definitely doesn't have something (whatever it is, booster or some other magic) that lasts for the life of the rubber. It is still quite spinny after a long time but the sponge is definitely dead. This, to me, points more towards factory applied booster. And who says you can't detect it? Have you tried? Did you send a new T05 to an analytical lab?


Of course there are any number of alternative explanations to this, for example gas leaking out of the pores inside the sponge, pore walls getting ruptured, oxidation of the top sheet, micro fractures int he underlying pips etc. etc. etc.  In rubbers and balls, people seem to fixate on one explanation for things they see. 

I can say from long experience that T05 playing properties are a lot more stable than Evolution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

This post seems strange to me. This rubber has been out almost 10 years and now people think it is has some secret special tuner that lasts the whole life of the rubber and can't be detected.

As far as I know, the same claim has been circulating on Chinese forums all these years. It's just that no one has been able to confirm.

Edited by zeio - 04/21/2017 at 12:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:



i know a player who was in the worlds team and got one used rubber sheet from muramatsu and had some chemical smell on it


Which probably just means that he boosts it, which shouldn't surprise anyone.  Normally it just has the smell of rubber.


but it was a strong chemical smell comercial t05 doesnt smell .I ve been told that several top players carry a tiny silver unlabeled bottle even choppers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 2:25pm
Yes but it was used rubber. What did the player do to it before gluing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

 
As far as I know, the same claim has been circulating on Chinese forums all these years. It's just that no one has been able to confirm.

No smell does not imply unboosted.

I request some both-sided T05 users to try out what I did.

Basically, you try 2 new sheets of T05, one right out the package and the other is still uncut but left out of the package for a few days. If there is a clear difference in performance between the two sheets, then clearly, there is boosting involved.

I did not use rubber cement - I used tearmender.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

 
As far as I know, the same claim has been circulating on Chinese forums all these years. It's just that no one has been able to confirm.


No smell does not imply unboosted.

I request some both-sided T05 users to try out what I did.

Basically, you try 2 new sheets of T05, one right out the package and the other is still uncut but left out of the package for a few days. If there is a clear difference in performance between the two sheets, then clearly, there is boosting involved.

I did not use rubber cement - I used tearmender.

Tear mender? That alone invalidates your opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:


No smell does not imply unboosted.

I request some both-sided T05 users to try out what I did.

Basically, you try 2 new sheets of T05, one right out the package and the other is still uncut but left out of the package for a few days. If there is a clear difference in performance between the two sheets, then clearly, there is boosting involved.

I did not use rubber cement - I used tearmender.


Here is the only valid way to do this:

Buy 12 sheets of Tenergy (ought to be enough).  Give them to someone you trust to do the gluing.  That person lets one rubber air before gluing for a few days, takes the other one right out of the package and glues it to the other side, making a note of which color was aired.  But he doesn't tell you what side was which.  Then you play with the blade and write down which side felt more boosted or not, perhaps using a 0-5 scale for boost or speed glue effect that you put down for each sheet.  Then repeat with another pair of rubbers, and so forth for all six pairs of rubbers.   By the end of the experiment, the glue person should have in random order made it so that three times it was the black one that was aired and three times it was the red one that was aired (because we want to exclude any possible effect of rubber color).  And you, the person who plays with the racket, cannot know what any result is until all six pairs have been tested and results recorded.  Only then can the code be broken and results tabulated and the effects of color and airing checked out using an analysis of variance, probably a two-way ANOVA with rubber color and airing as the two independent variables.

In other words, if the experiment isn't done blind; and if it isn't repeated a few times; and if you don't exclude possible effects of rubber color; and if there is no attempt to make it quantitative; then it is meaningless and I for one won't believe it.  I also know that nobody is likely to do it this way, since it is a lot of money and time.  That doesn't change the fact that this is what it would take to make any sort of convincing argument.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2017 at 2:13am
my friend was hitting fh in the wttc warming hall and checked how mizutani& dima were countering and he said there s no way a normal t05 can make such a loud sound

i recently glued a fresh rakza 9 sheet and has the same smell like dandoy trf booster why buttefly wouldnt do it?

Edited by bbkon - 04/22/2017 at 2:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2017 at 9:25am
Humm...

Good looping does sound good though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2017 at 11:45am
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Humm...

Good looping does sound good though...


not with that high pitched sound
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2017 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Humm...

Good looping does sound good though...


not with that high pitched sound
If only Butterfly could just make Tenergy 05 with a harder sponge during production then boost it to it's current hardness. I'm guessing there would be some kind of durability/non-linearity issue with that though, as well as the fact that quite of a lot of club players can't even handle regular, non-boosted Tenergy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2017 at 11:26pm
I don't feel it is but that effect on the mark v topsheet is unusual. i mean i've layed tenergy on top of another for minibats and that didn't happen. are you sure you hadn't boosted your tenergy or leftover booster on your brush? :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2017 at 6:26pm
Just curious how there could be a difference if it sits out of the package for a few days when Tenergy is open to the air in its package anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2017 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

Just curious how there could be a difference if it sits out of the package for a few days when Tenergy is open to the air in its package anyway.


Maybe but see my response to slevin above on the right way to check this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 6:55am
It's much simpler to exclude the possible effect of rubber colour by exclusively using red or black rubbers, rather than mixing in both red and black rubbers. This halves the number of combinations. It's safe to assume whatever treatment is applied to black rubbers is also applied to red ones. But your protocol assumes all new sheets are identical, while some may have been sitting on the shelf for much longer than others.

Your approach makes me think you come from a field related to medicine or biology, or social sciences…

Edited by Bran - 04/25/2017 at 7:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 8:12am
Medicine and biology. You are right about color.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 11:06am
Does everyone think that the booster evaporates? If so the rubber should shrink? I can bring a new sheet of T05 to work and measure it on a granite plate in a few spots and then re-measure the same spots in a week or 2 to see if it has shrunk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 11:17am
Certainly regular booster evaporates, so if Tenergy is getting performance that way (which I think is clearly true for MX-P) then it should evaporate.  Would that make it shrink though? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 11:22am
Boosters expand the sponge so as the booster evaporates the sponge should shrink? It will be easy to measure. Many have claimed Tenergy shrinks after glued the first time. I have a few new sheets I just received the other day . They are in the newer Tenergy package so its not that old.

Edited by jpenmaster - 04/25/2017 at 11:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 1:02pm
Tenergy does NOT shrink if you roll it on gently and avoid stretching it. 
I just reglued a 2-month old sheet which I removed yesterday and left unglued overnight... still fits perfectly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Tenergy does NOT shrink if you roll it on gently and avoid stretching it. 
I just reglued a 2-month old sheet which I removed yesterday and left unglued overnight... still fits perfectly.


That was my experience too, for many years.  However some people on this thread disagree with this and I don't know why. 

I honestly don't think Tenergy is factory boosted in the way most people interpret that phrase -- meaning specifically that a chemical expander is applied to the sponge at the factory after the top sheet and sponge are glued together.  In other words, the factory is doing something similar (legally according to ITTF) to what a player might do at home with Haifu or Biobooster (illegal according to ITTF).  I think it is quite clear that this is part of the secret to Evolution MX-P for example.  The smell alone is a dead giveaway.

Bear in mind that by this definition,  a "speed glue effect" rubber like Tenergy does not need to be "factory boosted".  I think it gets its effects by some unique way they make the sponge, and that whatever they are doing the effect is substantially more stable, but of course will still degrade at some point. 

In any case, whatever it is they do, I think it results in a rubber that maintains its playing properties better than most of its competitors, although that may now be changing with ESN's latest offerings.

I have the feeling that the gap between ESN's rubbers and Tenergy (as they would be assessed by Tenergy lovers) is narrowing a bit each year.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adishorul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 1:28pm
Tenergy is not factory boosted, for regular players would be too much, but for professional players boosting is a must. Talking about differences between red and black rubber is well-known the color of the topsheet makes the difference in elasticity, spin and the way rubber is reacting to incoming spin, not the sponge as somebody tried to suggest.

Edited by adishorul - 04/25/2017 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Tenergy does NOT shrink if you roll it on gently and avoid stretching it. 
I just reglued a 2-month old sheet which I removed yesterday and left unglued overnight... still fits perfectly.


That was my experience too, for many years.  However some people on this thread disagree with this and I don't know why. 


I'll offer one possibility then - 2 months isn't enough.  I used to use my tenergy for a period of 6-9 months before switching them around, and I would have noticeable shrinkage.  I also think the number of hours you use the sheet for matters - this isn't just a matter of a rubber being exposed to air and gradually shrinking (although I'm sure that happens - it's just very slow in tenergy's case) - deforming the sponge through use will be having an effect.

About the rolling/stretching idea - the way I cut first with a slight overlap and glue later removes this possibility.  Unless you're saying that the physical action of stretching the rubber causes shrinkage through some destructive effect, but I don't think that's what you mean.

This is mostly a semantic argument.  The only thing I find interesting is that people think the discussion is important and are really sure one way or the other without defining precisely what "factory boosted" means and without knowing what butterfly, or anyone else, do in the factory.  I've seen red flags over the years with tenergy but I wouldn't state with any surety what actually goes on.  I like to think that the "magic" goes on when the pores are formed in the sponge (not particularly bothered about the topsheet or where it is), and that magic gradually fades.  How that's done I don't know, but it will involve chemicals because (shocker) everything is a chemical, so for me the sponge is tuned during manufacture.  That might stretch the definition for some, but I don't care.  And yes, that means any porous sponge could potentially fall into the same basket, so they all are or none are.


Edited by AndySmith - 04/25/2017 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 1:40pm
My own experience is that there was a period when Tenergy did shrink. I did nothing different in applying the rubber and the next set did not shrink.
Maybe there was a bad batch, or Bty were experimenting. I've bought about 6 T05 in the last year or so and no shrinking problems. this despite moving them between blades for EJ purposes..


Edited by Tinykin - 04/25/2017 at 1:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

My own experience is that there was a period when Tenergy did shrink. I did nothing different in applying the rubber and the next set did not shrink.
Maybe there was a bad batch, or Bty were experimenting. I've bought about 6 T05 in the last year or so and no shrinking problems. this despite moving them between blades for EJ purposes..

Another possible explanation for the varying responses on this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

This is mostly a semantic argument.  The only thing I find interesting is that people think the discussion is important and are really sure one way or the other without defining precisely what "factory boosted" means and without knowing what butterfly, or anyone else, do in the factory. 


No it's not.

Since you quoted me, I have been repeatedly VERY clear about how I define factory boosting on this thread (I've made it clear in several comments). The word boosting has always meant painting various coats of an oil-based substance on the sponge (like BioBooster or Haifu oil) and waiting some days before attaching.  Therefore "factory boosting" must mean that the factory does basically the same thing, AFTER the topsheet and sponge are attached. I think nearly everybody interprets the phrase that way.  I've also said that I don't know for certain what Butterfly does to give Tenergy a speed glue effect. 

However, the reasons why I strongly suspect it is not factory boosting per se are (1) lack of shrinkage in my experience (not even once between 2008-2017 did I have a Tenergy shrink on my blade or after removal), (2) lack of characteristic booster smell in marked contrast to Bluefire and Evolution, (3) stability of the playing properties relative to rubbers like Evolution and Bluefire and (4) the fact (or so I am told) that brand new sheets of Tenergy won't set off a VOC detector and Evolution will.  I know it's not entirely definitive and my suspicion could be wrong.  But I think the evidence as things stand now makes my theory more plausible than the alternative. 

And as for whether the discussion is important, well it is interesting and you have participated a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:


I'll offer one possibility then - 2 months isn't enough. 


In which case it is in very marked contrast to Evolution or any booster that we apply ourselves, and therefore suggests that the speed glue effect in Tenergy is produced by a different process that would not be something we would call boosting per se (even if it produces a speed glue effect0.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

This is mostly a semantic argument.  The only thing I find interesting is that people think the discussion is important and are really sure one way or the other without defining precisely what "factory boosted" means and without knowing what butterfly, or anyone else, do in the factory. 


No it's not.

Since you quoted me, I have been repeatedly VERY clear about how I define factory boosting on this thread (I've made it clear in several comments). The word boosting has always meant painting various coats of an oil-based substance on the sponge (like BioBooster or Haifu oil) and waiting some days before attaching.  Therefore "factory boosting" must mean that the factory does basically the same thing, AFTER the topsheet and sponge are attached. I think nearly everybody interprets the phrase that way.  I've also said that I don't know for certain what Butterfly does to give Tenergy a speed glue effect. 

However, the reasons why I strongly suspect it is not factory boosting per se are (1) lack of shrinkage in my experience (not even once between 2008-2017 did I have a Tenergy shrink on my blade or after removal), (2) lack of characteristic booster smell in marked contrast to Bluefire and Evolution, (3) stability of the playing properties relative to rubbers like Evolution and Bluefire and (4) the fact (or so I am told) that brand new sheets of Tenergy won't set off a VOC detector and Evolution will.  I know it's not entirely definitive and my suspicion could be wrong.  But I think the evidence as things stand now makes my theory more plausible than the alternative. 

And as for whether the discussion is important, well it is interesting and you have participated a lot.

I think the opinions are interesting, but the subject itself is not.  I'll lay it out.  And I'm not quoting you in order to single you out at all, just continuing the discussion.

I've had tenergy shrink.  It's great that you haven't, but I have.  There are a few possible reasons why it's happened to me and not you.  Tenergy smells of something, as most things tend to do, and I can't say if it smells of something used to expand the sponge or not, but it doesn't smell like, for example, sriver.  There could be any number of reasons for that, but some oils used to expand the sponge are odorless so relying on smell isn't a good approach to rule it out.  For sure, if tenergy could be considered "boosted", it lasts a whole lot longer than other rubbers which fit the definition, so well done BTY, yay.

So let's look at MX-P.  The smell is more obvious, because it matches a known booster.  It shrinks, faster than tenergy.  I've NEVER heard of Evolution setting a detector off, and I'd be amazed if that were true after all the effort ESN have put in to tell everyone that their rubbers are VOC-free after the glue ban, but crazier things have happened I suppose.

I think that's all I can say for sure (and of course people have their own personal experiences that can contradict any of these points).  But if your (and perhaps the) definition of factory boosted is that something is applied after the rubber is stuck together, then unless you (or someone else) knows what goes on in the ESN and Butterfly factories then you're stuck.  Why would anyone assume that the two factories use different methodologies?  What have you seen in MX-P that makes you think that the process happened after the topsheet was attached, but before in the case of tenergy?  Because I think it's just as likely that ESN expand the sponge before the topsheet goes on.  I can't see anything that suggests one way or the other, in either case, so it seems to be pure guesswork.

And guesswork is fine, but the interesting bit for me is that people are REALLY sure one way or the other.  I don't think anyone can be called "wrong" in this thread apart from people who try to state something as fact.  I don't think you've done that.

But anyway, if we take your definition as the gospel for the purposes of the next paragraph then neither MX-P or tenergy are factory boosted because we don't know how the "booster" is applied by ESN - before or after the topsheet is attached.  They could easily be using the booster during the sponge manufacturing process to expand the pores, and that's the end of it.  Or if we say that MX-P is boosted, why aren't we applying the same rigor (meaning imaginative guesswork) to tenergy?  At best we could say that it's better factory boosted because whatever they've done lasts longer.  And this is why it's a semantic argument for me, based on what I've seen.  

But if someone had never seen tenergy shrink, then I can understand why they might lean in the other direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2017 at 3:28pm
I wonder if the shrinkage has something to do with the high tension process over time and not from boosting?
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