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Tortured by angles, placement, misdirection

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    Posted: 05/05/2017 at 10:31am
A recent match of mine vs Rich DeWitt which was played just after I had an exhausting win over a quality opponent. I had no gameplan despite having played Rich about 100 times.

Highlights with slow motion replays.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Re1Mu2R3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 10:47am
Solution: Time to change equipment. WinkWinkWink
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Have you considered Prosthetic arm extensions ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 11:32am
Lose some weight bic boi

You're torturing yourself
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 11:42am
Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

Lose some weight bic boi

You're torturing yourself

Easier said than done, unfortunately. Also, would you mind pointing us to video of your own match play, so that we could provide a few 'helpful' comments?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 11:44am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

Lose some weight bic boi

You're torturing yourself


Easier said than done, unfortunately. Also, would you mind pointing us to video of your own match play, so that we could provide a few 'helpful' comments?






Thank you for offering your services sir, but I am not asking for any help today. Maybe in the future
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 1:08pm
I think he was implying that your advice isn't really advice, it's just a put-down. I mean, based on the name "heavyspin" I think he probably realizes the limitation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 1:21pm
So if you were going to have had a strategy, what would it be? I play a lot a awkward guys like this, not nearly as good, but same general idea. So I'm curious what coukd work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 1:32pm
Just stick closer to the table to cut down the distance you have to cover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

So if you were going to have had a strategy, what would it be? I play a lot a awkward guys like this, not nearly as good, but same general idea. So I'm curious what coukd work.


if it was me, I would be very aggressive, take initiative and use speed to prevent him from doing the weird shots. Most awkward guys I know can't handle fast balls as good as slow balls. When the ball is fast, they have less time and less options to do weird shots and will just try to put the ball back to table.

As for the OP, no offense but clearly the problem is that your weight prevent you from recovering quickly from shots and covering the wide areas. Or maybe you were just too tired?
The only strategy I can think of is stay close to table, use shorter strokes, don't move too much and use very little body weight transfer in order to keep balance all the time and ready to cover all the table. That's how the best big guys (that I know) play.


Edited by balldance - 05/05/2017 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 2:07pm
Rich's body language is very deceptive.  He looks like he's going one way but goes the other way using his wrist.  He's very good at placement.  You need really good reaction times to be able to play against him.

If I were playing him, and I'm not a fast improving junior who can beat him with speed, I would probably stay close to the table and try to use his tactics against him.  Hit fast and deep and/or wide, never to the same place more than twice, and force him to move.  Do it to him before he does it to you.


Edited by GMan4911 - 05/05/2017 at 2:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 2:26pm
Against players like rich, guess you have no choice other than to out-pace him or just out-play him. If you are really fit and have good polished strokes then you can definitely back off a few feet from the table and use his angles against him. But yeah, if you arnt quick enough on your feet, guess all you can hope to do is either beat him at his own game, or try to throw his game off.

All said n done,imma big fan of yoursheavyspin, totally loved a few those rallies man!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 2:31pm
You guys do know that Rich is currently 2200+, was rated as high as 2450+ and even today consistently gives trouble to players around 2350 if not higher?

Beating him is not trivial, so I am curious as to what strategies and ball quality/consistency one must possess to defeat him. His rubbers are also quite dead and not spin-sensitive.


Edited by pgpg - 05/05/2017 at 2:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 2:42pm
The only thing I would try against him would be a deeper ball on your openings, which is much harder to put away than the ones that land mid-table'ish, other than that I don't really know what would work on this kind of a player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 5:30pm
DeWitt's placement is impressive. If I was coaching this match I would suggest more short game. Also more dead balls and make him open-he appears to thrive in the counter attack. I would also suggest when you open find his elbow. Great video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 5:41pm
DeWitt is a tough opponent, i saw him play a few times and his game is very efficient. Im way under you guys in rating but i would guess try to hit those corners and make him move, hitting into his body seems like a bad idea since he counters alot. Nonetheless excellent play.

Edited by DreiZ - 05/05/2017 at 5:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

You guys do know that Rich is currently 2200+, was rated as high as 2450+ and even today consistently gives trouble to players around 2350 if not higher?

Beating him is not trivial, so I am curious as to what strategies and ball quality/consistency one must possess to defeat him. His rubbers are also quite dead and not spin-sensitive.

There are quite a few ways to beat Rich but if you are an athletic looper, the simplest is to serve long and wide into his backhand and loop the return into his forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 8:21pm
This guy uses short pimples on the forehand?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

This guy uses short pimples on the forehand?
Inverted both sides but behaves like medium pips if that answers your question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 8:42pm
Advice for the under 2100 field. You can sometimes beat Rich because he is off. He hits a ball into the net or off the end that would've been a winner or a clear advantage shot. Playing into his right hip can be effective. If you can scramble and retrieve well, backing off the table can work since he doesn't have much power. Abort that plan if it's not working, continue if it is working. Most of the time you will react to what he does and won't often have the luxury to carry out your plan. 
When I've had success (as in wins) against Rich, I was more selective in attacks and played less spinny. My general tendency is to offer a medium speed high spin ball as my opening attack and take it from there. This feeds into Rich's strength and my ball is now probably easier for him since the ball change to plastic.


Edited by heavyspin - 05/05/2017 at 9:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 8:44pm
Don't get into long rallies with him.  Try to finish the point with every hit.  With each successive hit the advantage is more in his favor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Don't get into long rallies with him.  Try to finish the point with every hit.  With each successive hit the advantage is more in his favor. 

Long rallies were not a problem the one time I played him, since I was getting into 'pick up a ball' mode very quickly. LOL

Balls are flat, low, go into the corners, and plenty of misdirection to boot. Shrugs off your spin (and I don't produce much in the first place). I think I got 5 points at most.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Don't get into long rallies with him.  Try to finish the point with every hit.  With each successive hit the advantage is more in his favor. 

Long rallies were not a problem the one time I played him, since I was getting into 'pick up a ball' mode very quickly. LOL

Balls are flat, low, go into the corners, and plenty of misdirection to boot. Shrugs off your spin (and I don't produce much in the first place). I think I got 5 points at most.


I don't think heavyspin has the mobility to sustain long corner to corner rallies. 

Young mobile guys like you and me can cover corners over and over again all day, but he has trouble covering more than two corners. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2017 at 9:35pm
If I may make an observation : that ' medium speed high spin ball ' attacking opening was probably not a good idea. The opponent was waiting for it to block or push or punch or smack left and right back and his control was good enough to handle that 'attacking opening'.
Once the opponent could return that attack to the left or right, you are destabilized. Worst, you step back; thinking you will have more time.
It has been said; stay closer to the table; 'feed' him left and right 'fast' if you can; no medium speed high speed returns to his blade. 

This is what I would do if I could. LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2017 at 1:42am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Advice for the under 2100 field. You can sometimes beat Rich because he is off. He hits a ball into the net or off the end that would've been a winner or a clear advantage shot. Playing into his right hip can be effective. If you can scramble and retrieve well, backing off the table can work since he doesn't have much power. Abort that plan if it's not working, continue if it is working. Most of the time you will react to what he does and won't often have the luxury to carry out your plan. 
When I've had success (as in wins) against Rich, I was more selective in attacks and played less spinny. My general tendency is to offer a medium speed high spin ball as my opening attack and take it from there. This feeds into Rich's strength and my ball is now probably easier for him since the ball change to plastic.

Hey, if you don't mind a bit of belated thinking here... here's what I saw in the video:

You can't afford to let him move you around.  Anywhere where you move off the table or lose your balance, you're at risk that his next shot will go to a location that is impossible for you to reach.  The rallies that worked best for you were where you could make comfortable loops where he couldn't push you too hard, and then you dropped the hammer with a hard shot.

I think your "usual" strategy of medium speed may be *too* fast. I'd go for a slower, even more spiny loop.  The less speed you put on the ball, the less energy there is for him to convert into a fast shot of his own.  And the more spin you have, the harder for him to hit as opposed to block.  The idea is to keep the rally going with minimal footwork or loss of balance (and no moving off the table).  You look for the opportunity; the chance for your power shot that he can't easily deflect.  In the video, you were indiscriminate in your choice of power shots.

If you want to mix something else in, I'd try super-slow, very dead balls.  Basically, throw his own game back at him.  It won't be hard to control his shots because he can't generate much spin himself.  But I would use this only as the occasional change-up.

This is all assuming you have the skill level to match Rich's, but I know how well you can play.  Given your mobility limitations, I think you could win with a different strategy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2017 at 10:29am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


Hey, if you don't mind a bit of belated thinking here... here's what I saw in the video:

You can't afford to let him move you around.  Anywhere where you move off the table or lose your balance, you're at risk that his next shot will go to a location that is impossible for you to reach.  The rallies that worked best for you were where you could make comfortable loops where he couldn't push you too hard, and then you dropped the hammer with a hard shot.

Don't mind at all. I really like the expression "dropped the hammer" - very appropriate for the context. I recently showed the video to my part-time coach, the former CNT, and she said (via interpreter) that I should never back off the table vs Rich and echoed some of the other points you made.

I also worked with a friend where we used advanced physics to help explain Rich's game. The following theories are influenced by the work of Werner Heisenberg and Erwin Schrodinger.

1st Theory: One might determine where Rich will place the ball or one might determine how fast he'll hit the ball, but it's impossible to determine both at the same time.

2nd Theory: Rich's ball is not topspin, underspin, both, or neither until it contacts one's racket. Only by hitting it can one determine its spin and it is always 50/50 probability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2017 at 3:10pm
Rich is obviously very good at controlling the ball.

I would try some odd tactics on serve and trying some angles. Serve from the other side of the table to force a really wide forehand. It's just something to try. How does he do against lefties?

As others have suggested spin can be the enemy. I don't think your weight was an issue - he had some really good ball placement. He was happy for you to loop your 3rd ball in the video you showed us. Twice he got you with a block to your backhand corner from a 3rd ball loop.

Perhaps offer up some sidespin on the backhand, pushing the ball out wider. I don't think his forehand stroke is powerful enough on it's own to get past you if you are ready for them (good example at the end when you countered it on him). Maybe looping to his forehand cross court could have success.

Btw Heavyspin - you have some really nice strokes. Fluid and lots of whip.

For those who get on him for being so heavy...I don't think any of those clips change if he drops a bunch of weight. Not every match is determined by physical fitness (but some are...).


Edited by wilkinru - 06/08/2017 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2017 at 4:28pm
I've seen Rich play a few times.  I know how good he is, but still I have no idea how half of those shots land anywhere near the table.

I do not think I have any new advice to offer here.  I've never played people who were that good and people who were that weird, but never both.

I have played a few people who play a similar style and are closer to my level and the only strategy that worked for me was to effectively play them like i would play a penholder:  play deep, slow and heavy into the BH, then attack strongly to the BH.  Once they expect the BH, open deep, slow and heavy into the FH, then attack strongly to the BH.

With players who like to stand in the middle of the table, it is helpful to get them to move toward one of the corners, before you attack the other corner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2017 at 1:26am
Just curious: has Rich ever played Pushblocker?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2017 at 1:37am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Just curious: has Rich ever played Pushblocker?
They have played twice against each other in tournaments. 2015 Rich won both matches 3-1 and 3-0.
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