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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

How many casual golf or tennis players will fly across the country for a golf tournament?  Very few.  Luckyloop is comparing apples and oranges.


You would be surprised at Golfers who play at famous courses on their vacations.

Top 100 Tennis Resorts in USA

Both are leisure hobbies too.

How many would travel far if there was a good chance they only get to play 4 of the 18  holes depending on who else showed up that day.

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 05/15/2017 at 8:36pm
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Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Maybe this is the harsh reality of why the USA has so few annual tournament participants.
Ping Pong is easier and less expensive to play than either golf or tennis yet those sports have a lot more public participation.
==============================
Golf has been on the decline for many many years. (Warning: the story in the following link is very long.)

News from elsewhere unrelated to the above link:
Many stores specializing selling only golf related goods -- went out of business, right and left, in recent years.

Table tennis is not that bad, as far as I know. See link below.


Edited by skip3119 - 05/15/2017 at 10:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 12:45am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Maybe this is the harsh reality of why the USA has so few annual tournament participants.
Ping Pong is easier and less expensive to play than either golf or tennis yet those sports have a lot more public participation.

==============================
Golf has been on the decline for many many years. (Warning: the story in the following link is very long.)
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-: EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-death-of-golf-20150625</span>

News from elsewhere unrelated to the above link:
Many stores specializing selling only golf related goods -- went out of business, right and left, in recent years.

Table tennis is not that bad, as far as I know. See link below.
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-: EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-08-15/america-s-golf-courses-are-burning</span>




There are still over 16,000 Golf Courses in the USA after all the closings. The closings were mostly courses built to sell real estate residential lots. It is hard for any sports establishment to specialize in one sport in today's market with all the competition. Walmart is now selling golf equipment they don't even stock, a shipment from the distributor or manufacturer to their store for pick up.
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The business of golf is in deep trouble. The number of rounds played per year has dropped by millions. Younger people are not playing.

Nike exited the golf equipment business last year.

Last week, Adidas sold its Taylor Made golf division. It's golf revenue dropped from a peak of $1.7 billion to $500 million last year.

Dick's Sporting Goods got rid of all dedicated golf sales employees in stores.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 3:02am
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

The business of golf is in deep trouble. The number of rounds played per year has dropped by millions. Younger people are not playing.

Nike exited the golf equipment business last year.

Last week, Adidas sold its Taylor Made golf division. It's golf revenue dropped from a peak of $1.7 billion to $500 million last year.

Dick's Sporting Goods got rid of all dedicated golf sales employees in stores.



USA Golf equipment sales in 2015 were 2.5 billion. Public courses number over 11,000. Most of the course closings are privately owned. The sport is declining but still very popular. Some very good club TT players I know spend more on Golf than TT.

LA Times Article

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 05/16/2017 at 3:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 8:05am
When it comes to ratings, I think many adults are more immature than the juniors they wish to avoid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 8:13am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

When it comes to ratings, I think many adults are more immature than the juniors they wish to avoid.

Well said.  That doesn't vitiate the arguments in favor of separating juniors from adults though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 10:34am
How many times has this conversation occurred between an avid USATT player and his non TT friend?

Non TT player: Let me get this right. For the last few weeks you've given up your family obligations and hanging out with friends so you could train every day to prepare for the National table tennis championships...and now you're telling me that you lost to an 11 year old girl???

TT player: You don't understand. She's really good!

(Optional)
TT player: Actually, it was one of my best matches - I almost won a game from her!


Edited by heavyspin - 05/16/2017 at 10:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

How many times has this conversation occurred between an avid USATT player and his non TT friend?

Non TT player: Let me get this right. For the last few weeks you've given up your family obligations and hanging out with friends so you could train every day to prepare for the National table tennis championships...and now you're telling me that you lost to an 11 year old girl???

TT player: You don't understand. She's really good!

(Optional)
TT player: Actually, it was one of my best matches - I almost won a game from her!

I actually got a win off of one of these a few (3) years ago...not going to happen again, she's now in the top 10 in her age group, over 2200 rated.  I have a few matches like this over the years.  Also have a few to cry over, including one where I had to play the same kid in multiple events, each one a loss.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

When it comes to ratings, I think many adults are more immature than the juniors they wish to avoid.

Well said.  That doesn't vitiate the arguments in favor of separating juniors from adults though.

Cool.  Word of the day, "vitiate."  Spelled "v" "i" "t" "i" "a" "t" "e".  

Vitiate - spoil or impair the quality or efficiency of


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

How many times has this conversation occurred between an avid USATT player and his non TT friend?

Non TT player: Let me get this right. For the last few weeks you've given up your family obligations and hanging out with friends so you could train every day to prepare for the National table tennis championships...and now you're telling me that you lost to an 11 year old girl???

TT player: You don't understand. She's really good!

(Optional)
TT player: Actually, it was one of my best matches - I almost won a game from her!

Reminds me of this video clip from ten years ago - back when I was still sponging it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 5:25pm
Reminds me of this video clip from ten years ago - back when I was still sponging it.

some low toss serves there, lucky no umpire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

some low toss serves there, lucky no umpire

Yep.  I'd probably call a few of those tosses too.  I was about four years into the sport at the time and I think I had probably been called a few times on it. It was a bad habit. Fixing it was no significant problem.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 7:40pm

Bottom line

No one wants to discourage participation by children or adults.

A happy medium is offering adult rated events.

We need adult support for the sport.

How many adult Golf foursomes include your or others children usually ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2017 at 1:12am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Bottom line

No one wants to discourage participation by children or adults.

A happy medium is offering adult rated events.

We need adult support for the sport.

How many adult Golf foursomes include your or others children usually ?

I have no problems with USA TT doing these type of events, I was just saying it does allow the graded players a easier ride, 
Most Countries are quite big into Veteran type events if Mog111 was a 50 year old he would be number 658ranked  in England o50's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2017 at 2:39am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:


I have no problems with USA TT doing these type of events, I was just saying it does allow the graded players a easier ride, 
Most Countries are quite big into Veteran type events if Mog111 was a 50 year old he would be number 658ranked  in England o50's

It is only easier in the sense that it is less likely that players will have to play grossly underrated players.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 1:19am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:


I have no problems with USA TT doing these type of events, I was just saying it does allow the graded players a easier ride, 
Most Countries are quite big into Veteran type events if Mog111 was a 50 year old he would be number 658ranked  in England o50's

It is only easier in the sense that it is less likely that players will have to play grossly underrated players.  
 I agree with that statement, so the kids need to gain ratings and their fastest way is to beat rated adults
because if a 900 rated kid plays another kid with the same rating nothing happens
 where in truth the both kids are 1200+, so how do you get kids to gain ratings faster?
 Actually every Country has the same problems and England has three  bunch of ratings for kids, adults and the over 40's have another separate ratings list

No other Country has so many rating levels as the USA and this is good for income  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 1:38am
smackman wrote - No other Country has so many rating levels as the USA and this is good for income

How come the other countries have more registered players ? Is more rating levels a deterrent ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 2:49am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:


I have no problems with USA TT doing these type of events, I was just saying it does allow the graded players a easier ride, 
Most Countries are quite big into Veteran type events if Mog111 was a 50 year old he would be number 658ranked  in England o50's

It is only easier in the sense that it is less likely that players will have to play grossly underrated players.  
 I agree with that statement, so the kids need to gain ratings and their fastest way is to beat rated adults
because if a 900 rated kid plays another kid with the same rating nothing happens
 where in truth the both kids are 1200+, so how do you get kids to gain ratings faster?

That ignores the fact that there are also many juniors who are not also rated 900.  In fact, Juniors have ratings up and down the scale.  Furthermore, it seems clear that some juniors are in no rush to gain ratings.

I've spot checked this issue many times, and the problem of underrated juniors is not only caused by the rapid skill improvement of the juniors, but is frequently cause by long intervals between when juniors play in local tournaments. If they played tournaments a bit more frequently, the problem would be diminished. And in fairness, the relative long interval (about two months) between the ratings cut-off for the Open and Nationals contributes to the problem a bit.

All that said, I don't recall hearing much complaining about fast improving juniors beating adults in local tournaments.  The complaining has been mostly about the Open and Nationals.  But to the extent that there may be complaining about local events, I think there would be less concern if the juniors didn't wait 5-6 months or more between playing tournaments.  The main complaint has been that it is annoying when you spend significant time and money traveling to a big tournament only to get knocked out early by a significantly under-rated players (example, a player in the U-1100 who wins the U-1500 event).  

There seems to be good reason to believe that some Junior are avoiding local tournaments precisely so that they will be underrated when they hit the Nationals and therefor have a good chance of winning one or more events. 

BTW, the U.S. Open and Nationals have a number of events where juniors and adults mix.  Some of them a simple ratings events, and some of them are big events like the Super Tiered Round Robin.  That's a great event in that players tend to get sorted by their real level in the first tier of play.  
Also, the U-1200 and U-1600 events are not split into Adult and Junior.  They combine all ages.

To give an example, we can see that there is a player at the U.S. Open who  won the U-1500 Juniors, got second in the U-1300 Juniors, won U-1200 (combined) & won U-1100.  This player came in second in the U-1300 Juniors to the player who also won the U-1400. This player has not played a single tournament in 2017.  Not one.  

Now the player who won the U-1400 Juniors did play one tournament in 2017.  But the date of that tournament was 5-5-17, one day after the Nationals cut-off. Likewise, the one tournament played after the 2016 Nationals was after the ratings cut-off  for the U.S. Open. 

So, two players dominated five ratings based events and both seem to avoid playing in local tournaments with the result that they tend to enter the Open and Nationals under-rated.  Now maybe this is all just coincidence.  Who really knows.  I can't read people's minds or know their motivation. But this pattern seems to repeat frequently (in fairness, it wasn't nearly so bad at the 2016 Open) and this it what many adults have tired of. The separating of adults from juniors resolves this issue pretty well for adults.  Though other juniors still have to suffer with the problem.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 5:39am

That has happened off an on over several years. Probably more in the Nationals than the Open.

Just picked one year at random - 2011 US Nationals

Rengarajan, Abhishek won 1st

U1000, U1100, U1200, U1300

Won 2nd U1500

Played in Tournament 13 days before this, received a 1192 rating, after this Tournament received a 1665 rating.


Gao, Felix won 1st

U1500, U1600

Alguetti, Adar won 1st

U1900, U2000

Lin, Bryant won first

U2100, U2200



Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 05/19/2017 at 6:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycuzinvinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 9:50am
Yep, this used to happen at nearly every US Open/National.  Frustrating to spend vacation/$ to have no chance against a youth underrated 200-400 points. 

Its great we have juniors/youth getting into the sport, I always encourage others to improve their game.

(I have seen adults sandbag their rating, so I would call it the reverse engineering youth approach to winning the open/nationals...but its all good, I am winning all the events this year, anyways :-) ).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 12:44pm
The ICC club has many players who only play in a few tournaments a year.  The two tournaments they usually play in are their own tournaments.  Both of them are held after the rating cutoff for the Nationals and the Open.  They have many players who are very underrated. 

The Alameda club in the same area also has many fast improving juniors.  Those juniors play in many tournaments and are accurately rated.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 6:25pm
All this is understandable I would give kids prize money and not pay out for say older 50 or 60 yo doubles
hahaha (I actually can't understand why USA pay so much foe veteran and old pat players and nothing for the Juniors starting out?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

All this is understandable I would give kids prize money and not pay out for say older 50 or 60 yo doubles
hahaha (I actually can't understand why USA pay so much foe veteran and old pat players and nothing for the Juniors starting out?)


I'm not sure where you got the idea that there was money for older players, but there is almost no money for older players in the U.S.  I think most of the money goes to the juniors. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2017 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

How many times has this conversation occurred between an avid USATT player and his non TT friend?

Non TT player: Let me get this right. For the last few weeks you've given up your family obligations and hanging out with friends so you could train every day to prepare for the National table tennis championships...and now you're telling me that you lost to an 11 year old girl???

TT player: You don't understand. She's really good!

(Optional)
TT player: Actually, it was one of my best matches - I almost won a game from her!

Reminds me of this video clip from ten years ago - back when I was still sponging it.
The new event structure will prevent adults from crying after facing this 10 year old in the u1500's.



Edited by heavyspin - 05/22/2017 at 4:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2017 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

The new event structure will prevent adults from crying after facing this 10 year old in the u1500's.


It's all about timing, heavyspin. The secret was to play her ~3 weeks ago, like I did. Big smile  
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Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

It's all about timing, heavyspin. The secret was to play her ~3 weeks ago, like I did. Big smile  

It's also about selective editing. Despite the highlight video, I won a comfortable 3-0 match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2017 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

It's all about timing, heavyspin. The secret was to play her ~3 weeks ago, like I did. Big smile  


It's also about selective editing. Despite the highlight video, I won a comfortable 3-0 match.


Editing wasn't required to figure that out.   Watching you back up to fish should have been sufficient.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2017 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

It's all about timing, heavyspin. The secret was to play her ~3 weeks ago, like I did. Big smile  


It's also about selective editing. Despite the highlight video, I won a comfortable 3-0 match.


Editing wasn't required to figure that out.   Watching you back up to fish should have been sufficient.

Who's a wet blanket now? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2017 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

All this is understandable I would give kids prize money and not pay out for say older 50 or 60 yo doubles
hahaha (I actually can't understand why USA pay so much foe veteran and old pat players and nothing for the Juniors starting out?)


I'm not sure where you got the idea that there was money for older players, but there is almost no money for older players in the U.S.  I think most of the money goes to the juniors. 


http://register.usatt.org/tournaments/register.php
 look at the entry form, nothing for 70 year olds but 40's' etc
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