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worlds-is it worth it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

If we agree that the U.S. is not competitive and won't be in the next 10 years why not think out of the box?
Put this money into the Nationals- add $20,000 to both the Men's and Women's payout. This could bring 1st prize up to $20,000 for each and significant monies for 2nd through 16th. And keep building it.
One thing about prize money. It is always earned never given.
I think building up prize money and starting to develop some professional players is the only way to go.
Prize money is won and when it is  players will train hard and if there is enough they will forgo college and become professionals. Now there is no incentive or chance.
Our amateur -college bound- juniors against the worlds pros. It would be a shame not to send a team to the worlds. In one month from now you can flush that $40,000 down the drain. 
I know this is a out of the box solution, but I care, and if we stay on this same lethargic path we will never get back to the elite again.
Our team has a 3 day training session in the Netherlands. That should be enough! This is like a 2000 player going to train somewhere for the Nationals for 3 days and expecting some results.
What I would do, just for the sake of argument, is stop all international play and build up the domestic product until we are good enough to compete.

I can't disagree.  When a $40,000 expenditure is this dear, I think that says a LOT about how poor our sport's situation is. 

We really need to do both.  Send players to the Worlds, and increase prize money in top tournaments like the Nationals and Open.

Maybe a better question is, "What can the USATT do to bring in more money?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 6:01pm
A lot of truth on this thread.  It does seem like an inefficient use of money, and yet it reflects incredibly badly on table tennis in US that we need to care about what at the end of the day ought to be a fairly trivial amount, and that we basically no longer have adult players on our national team (and our juniors will quit soon). 

A number of years ago I was quite surprised to learn that quite a few top US players didn't like it that quite a few really good international players would attend the US Open thereby ensuring that US players had no change of winning prize money to cover their expenses to attend.  That was money that was pretty much coming from the US and leaving.

They had a kind of "protectionist" view point for lack of a better word for it.  Reasonable from their point of view.  On the other hand, those of us who are basically amateur "nobodys" liked getting the chance to see world top 50 players live.

In any case, right now there is no chance for a US player to amount to much if he/she does not commit to living abroad pretty much permanently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

If we agree that the U.S. is not competitive and won't be in the next 10 years why not think out of the box?
Put this money into the Nationals- add $20,000 to both the Men's and Women's payout. This could bring 1st prize up to $20,000 for each and significant monies for 2nd through 16th. And keep building it.
One thing about prize money. It is always earned never given.
I think building up prize money and starting to develop some professional players is the only way to go.
Prize money is won and when it is  players will train hard and if there is enough they will forgo college and become professionals. Now there is no incentive or chance.
Our amateur -college bound- juniors against the worlds pros. It would be a shame not to send a team to the worlds. In one month from now you can flush that $40,000 down the drain. 
I know this is a out of the box solution, but I care, and if we stay on this same lethargic path we will never get back to the elite again.
Our team has a 3 day training session in the Netherlands. That should be enough! This is like a 2000 player going to train somewhere for the Nationals for 3 days and expecting some results.
What I would do, just for the sake of argument, is stop all international play and build up the domestic product until we are good enough to compete.

I can't disagree.  When a $40,000 expenditure is this dear, I think that says a LOT about how poor our sport's situation is. 

We really need to do both.  Send players to the Worlds, and increase prize money in top tournaments like the Nationals and Open.

Maybe a better question is, "What can the USATT do to bring in more money?"

Wasn't there some ban on advertising money from alcoholic beverages?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 6:20pm
Given that USATT gets funding from USOC, I suspect it will be a hard sell to convince them that not sending our best players to compete at the world stage is a good way to raise their level. 

Even 20K extra in Nationals prize fund is not going to be enough to provide a living wage to aspiring TT players. You need a club/league system for this to work, which in turn needs sponsors, and for that you need a MUCH larger player base. Right now you have may be 30K somewhat serious players in the US (generously assuming that 75% of club players don't bother to join USATT) - not a lot of appeal to potential sponsors. So - need to grow the sport, perhaps not only among kids, but older generation as well - they do have disposable income and are appealing for advertisers.

As far as American players objecting to foreign players winning US Open - that's kind of the idea behind the Open, no? There is a Nationals tourney for locals. As an anecdotal evidence, a guy in my club told me that he is much more likely to go to the Open compared to the Nationals, since he will have a chance to see international players up and close there. I kind of agree with him there - and that's before we get to 'Las Vegas in July' aspect.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:54pm
I can't see that increasing the prize money would have much effect on our local pros.  $100,000 spread over 20 wannabe pros won't do much for any of them. 

Or problem is not sponsors, it's that we can't offer sponsors anything in return.  We don't even have a fan base.  Increasing prize money won't increase the fan base.

I once asked a potential sponsor to support my event because over 1,000 people would be attending.  He responded that for $250 he could sponsor a larger church service and get much more appreciation from the church goers.

There are thousands of players who could easily contribute $10,000 to the USATT.  We should be going after them.  The ICC club raises over $125,000 each year at their fundraiser.  If one club can do that, the USATT should be able to raise millions.

I once attended a fundraising tournament to support a local well established club.  When I left the tournament I gave them $100.  They were so surprised and commented that the club members only donated $5 or $10.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 10:47pm
We do have a few greats of the sport who were born in this country, Dan Seemiller being one, Jim Butler, others... can these people somehow get together, include some international/US players who played/currently play in USA, discuss the situation within such a forum, and ultimately try to come up with a plan of action? These people really know best what is going on and their common voice should count.
This seems to me like a logical approach to take.


Edited by JacekGM - 05/14/2017 at 10:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 11:20pm
I would be great if they could generate funding for a pro league, even if it were in a few areas.  I think it would take a million dollar a year commitment  for 10 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 11:53pm
What I find mystifying is why well-heeled parents send their progeny to clubs such as the Topspin club and ICC in Northern California to have them train in an American version of Chinese training methods under high-priced coaches while studying differential calculus, violin, neurosurgery (introduction to) and Zen business practices in their 60+ hour weeks, only to have these bright young kinder, after their parents have shelled out beaucoup bucks to try to turn them into world class table tennis material, decide instead that with their intelligence and dedication and discipline they can make a far better living as doctors and lawyers and such.

Yes, sponsors would be nice, but sponsors have a nasty habit of wanting a return on their investment.  But maybe Vibersi could become the official  USA Table Tennis sponsor of chronic obstructive bowel disorder.  Stranger things have happened.

I fear that for U.S. Table Tennis to prosper and eventually become competitive on the world stage three things are going to have to happen, not necessarily concurrently.  One is that big buck guys like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett are going to find in in their ridiculously wealthy hearts to donate a few hundred millions of their lucre to pong.  Two is that pong is somehow going to copy what tennis is doing and acquire hundreds of thousands of members all of whom are going to chip in to further the well being of USATT and send our brightest and best to international leagues and tournaments.  Three is that the best players we currently have forgo college or university for a while and take their chances in the cutthroat take no prisoners dog eat dog survival of the fittest with the fittest equipment world of 21st century pong. 


Edited by berndt_mann - 05/14/2017 at 11:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danseemiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 7:21am
My take is that prize money is not a priority nor is it even on the map for USA Table Tennis or the Olympic committee. Nobody cares or thinks this is important.
When many of our top players don't even tryout for the team that says plenty. They have no interest in spending several weeks making no money. Only the kids can afford to do that.

If there was a 1st prize of $20,000 at this summers Vegas I think Kanak Jha or whoever wins this  will use this money to improve. Same with Lily Zhang. Plus they would receive a bonus from their sponsor.
Now you have something. The $8,000. prize for this year is nice but it is only for the winner. 
Our sport will have some notoriety and credibility. Don't compare it to other sports. $20,000. is a nice start. For 30 years we have been throwing money, hundreds of thousands of dollars, at the juniors of the game and everyone of them has quit playing. 
Top world players make 100s of thousands of dollars per year,deservedly so, and our players have to pay to play. This is too great a gap and it seems to me not fair to the top U.S. players.
I love prize money as you can tell. When I won a couple of thousand  at a tourney it was easy to hit the training table on Monday morning knowing what I was doing was worth it. I was also training to show the world that the U.S. could do it. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich215 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 9:10am
Dan,  your exactly right with this situation I feel.  Great post!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2017 at 2:52am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Meanwhile Coach Greg Popovich of the San Antonio Spurs (NBA) will be paid $55 million over the next five years.  Coach Sean Payton of the New Orleans Saints (NFL) will be paid $45 million over the next five years.  My favorite NBA star James Harden of my hometown Houston Rockets will make $28.3 million this year, a bit less than LaBron James who will pull in $30.96 million in 2017.

By the way, Zeio, I have the impression that WLQ made more in his prime than current CNT stars do.  He seemed to have so many endorsements.  I remember trips to China around 2007 and 2008 where his picture was everywhere, advertising everything, and more than his teammates.  Of course that doesn't mean he made a ton of money, but sure seemed like it.


Just a day ago, the latest ranking for the wealthiest athletes in China was published. ZJK is the runner-up, raking in US$8.7 million. That's 4.6 times what he made in 2012, but still well behind Yao Ming's $20.5 million in 2010. Li Na made nearly as much for the next three years.

By comparison, WH was at the top in terms of table tennis and made roughly $755,000 in 2010, when the first such ranking was published.





Edited by zeio - 05/22/2017 at 2:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2017 at 8:19am
Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

A question for you. Is it worth it for the U.S. to send a team to the worlds?
Cost -around $35,000-40,000.
No Yijun Feng, no #1 player Adar Alguetti, No Jacqui Zheng on the women's side. Our team is not competitive and hasn't been for a long time. The worlds are basically single elimination.


Well, play has started, and so far Team USA is unbeaten - 5 wins, 0 losses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2017 at 4:08pm
First-day results: 10 wins, 2 losses.

Who says America isn't winning anymore? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 12:29pm
I hear Warren Buffet and Bill Gates likes table tennis. I somehow get the feeling they'd be up for donating a little extra for these events.

Point being there should be some money out there for TT.


Edited by wilkinru - 05/31/2017 at 12:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I hear Warren Buffet and Bill Gates likes table tennis. I somehow get the feeling they'd be up for donating a little extra for these events.

Point being there should be some money out there for TT.

They've been connected for some time and they don't seem to be motivated in that direction.  They seem to be motivated toward more humanitarian endeavors.  Kinda makes sense actually.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

What I find mystifying is why well-heeled parents send their progeny to clubs such as the Topspin club and ICC in Northern California to have them train in an American version of Chinese training methods under high-priced coaches while studying differential calculus, violin, neurosurgery (introduction to) and Zen business practices in their 60+ hour weeks, only to have these bright young kinder, after their parents have shelled out beaucoup bucks to try to turn them into world class table tennis material, decide instead that with their intelligence and dedication and discipline they can make a far better living as doctors and lawyers and such.

Yes, sponsors would be nice, but sponsors have a nasty habit of wanting a return on their investment.  But maybe Vibersi could become the official  USA Table Tennis sponsor of chronic obstructive bowel disorder.  Stranger things have happened.

I fear that for U.S. Table Tennis to prosper and eventually become competitive on the world stage three things are going to have to happen, not necessarily concurrently.  One is that big buck guys like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett are going to find in in their ridiculously wealthy hearts to donate a few hundred millions of their lucre to pong.  Two is that pong is somehow going to copy what tennis is doing and acquire hundreds of thousands of members all of whom are going to chip in to further the well being of USATT and send our brightest and best to international leagues and tournaments.  Three is that the best players we currently have forgo college or university for a while and take their chances in the cutthroat take no prisoners dog eat dog survival of the fittest with the fittest equipment world of 21st century pong. 


The kids that inhabit ICC and Topspin are mostly second generation americans born to first generation Indians, Chinese and other asian ethnicities, which place a high value on academic+financial success, so its very normal for them to see ping pong as just a way to get their kids in to an ivy league school and nothing more than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

What I find mystifying is why well-heeled parents send their progeny to clubs such as the Topspin club and ICC in Northern California to have them train in an American version of Chinese training methods under high-priced coaches while studying differential calculus, violin, neurosurgery (introduction to) and Zen business practices in their 60+ hour weeks, only to have these bright young kinder, after their parents have shelled out beaucoup bucks to try to turn them into world class table tennis material, decide instead that with their intelligence and dedication and discipline they can make a far better living as doctors and lawyers and such.

Yes, sponsors would be nice, but sponsors have a nasty habit of wanting a return on their investment.  But maybe Vibersi could become the official  USA Table Tennis sponsor of chronic obstructive bowel disorder.  Stranger things have happened.

I fear that for U.S. Table Tennis to prosper and eventually become competitive on the world stage three things are going to have to happen, not necessarily concurrently.  One is that big buck guys like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett are going to find in in their ridiculously wealthy hearts to donate a few hundred millions of their lucre to pong.  Two is that pong is somehow going to copy what tennis is doing and acquire hundreds of thousands of members all of whom are going to chip in to further the well being of USATT and send our brightest and best to international leagues and tournaments.  Three is that the best players we currently have forgo college or university for a while and take their chances in the cutthroat take no prisoners dog eat dog survival of the fittest with the fittest equipment world of 21st century pong. 




The kids that inhabit ICC and Topspin are mostly second generation americans born to first generation Indians, Chinese and other asian ethnicities, which place a high value on academic+financial success, so its very normal for them to see ping pong as just a way to get their kids in to an ivy league school and nothing more than that.

Come over to HK and you will learn about the most extreme version of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

A question for you. Is it worth it for the U.S. to send a team to the worlds?
Cost -around $35,000-40,000.
No Yijun Feng, no #1 player Adar Alguetti, No Jacqui Zheng on the women's side. Our team is not competitive and hasn't been for a long time. The worlds are basically single elimination.

I think Danny regrets by now having started this thread.

Kanak beats Crisan 4-3, and Lily beats Winter 4-3. Mixed doubles comes close to beating China/Germany, and women's doubles reaches the round of 16. American players are still alive in 3 events on Day 4. That must be the most successful worlds for USATT in a very long time.


Edited by amateur - 05/31/2017 at 6:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

A question for you. Is it worth it for the U.S. to send a team to the worlds?
Cost -around $35,000-40,000.
No Yijun Feng, no #1 player Adar Alguetti, No Jacqui Zheng on the women's side. Our team is not competitive and hasn't been for a long time. The worlds are basically single elimination.

I think Danny regrets by now having started this thread.

Kanak beats Crisan 4-3, and Lily beats Winter 4-3. Mixed doubles comes close to beating China/Germany, and women's doubles reaches the round of 16. American players are still alive in 3 events on Day 4. That must be the most successful worlds for USATT in a very long time.

I'm betting Danny is absolutely thrilled to see the success.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 6:12pm
Could it be the other way? I think he meant to stir things up to draw peoples' attention to the team. Or as an "encouragement" for the players?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:


I'm betting Danny is absolutely thrilled to see the success.


Looking forward to reading his analysis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 6:30pm
I think this thread is mostly accurate. The pot of gold here is just too small. We are arguing over airfare/accommodations for our elite athletes to go to the Worlds versus prize money we used to give out, but it shrank over time. Both are necessary. It's an impossible decision.

Here is a good thread hijack: the USOC dictates how the USATT runs things, down to the board member composition. But they no longer give us anywhere near the money they used to, in fact it's not enough for us to properly maintain the sport, much less grow it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:


Kanak beats Crisan 4-3, and Lily beats Winter 4-3. Mixed doubles comes close to beating China/Germany, and women's doubles reaches the round of 16. American players are still alive in 3 events on Day 4. That must be the most successful worlds for USATT in a very long time.

Now might be a good time to re-post this:
https://www.gofundme.com/kanakjha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 7:20pm
I donated a while back. I think he is the hope for USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

A question for you. Is it worth it for the U.S. to send a team to the worlds?
Cost -around $35,000-40,000.
No Yijun Feng, no #1 player Adar Alguetti, No Jacqui Zheng on the women's side. Our team is not competitive and hasn't been for a long time. The worlds are basically single elimination.


Well, play has started, and so far Team USA is unbeaten - 5 wins, 0 losses.

Anyone knows why Adar ended up not going to Dusseldorf? I thought it was a bit strange - and no explanation was given, AFAIK. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by danseemiller danseemiller wrote:

A question for you. Is it worth it for the U.S. to send a team to the worlds?
Cost -around $35,000-40,000.
No Yijun Feng, no #1 player Adar Alguetti, No Jacqui Zheng on the women's side. Our team is not competitive and hasn't been for a long time. The worlds are basically single elimination.


Well, play has started, and so far Team USA is unbeaten - 5 wins, 0 losses.

Anyone knows why Adar ended up not going to Dusseldorf? I thought it was a bit strange - and no explanation was given, AFAIK. 

It has been my question, too...
(1) Stiga Cipper Wood (ST, 92 g) with Focus 3 Snipe (red, 2.1 mm, 42 deg) on FH and 0.6mm Dr N. Desperado on BH (2) Juic SBA (Fl, 94 g) with Nimbus Soft (red max) on FH and 0.5mm Curl P1R on BH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:


I'm betting Danny is absolutely thrilled to see the success.


Looking forward to reading his analysis.

We are very happy to see these nice results, especially that they go beyond what could be expected.

It is easy to use  post factum arguments in a dispute. To offer constructive suggestions toward the problems our TT is facing might be more difficult, especially when taking on one of our undeniable gurus of the sport...
(1) Stiga Cipper Wood (ST, 92 g) with Focus 3 Snipe (red, 2.1 mm, 42 deg) on FH and 0.6mm Dr N. Desperado on BH (2) Juic SBA (Fl, 94 g) with Nimbus Soft (red max) on FH and 0.5mm Curl P1R on BH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2017 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Maybe offer a tax write off to people who donate money to amateur sports.
Donations to the USOC are tax deductible.

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I hear Warren Buffet and Bill Gates likes table tennis. I somehow get the feeling they'd be up for donating a little extra for these events.

Point being there should be some money out there for TT.

They've been connected for some time and they don't seem to be motivated in that direction.  They seem to be motivated toward more humanitarian endeavors.  Kinda makes sense actually.

Maybe they just haven't been "properly" motivated.  Wink

Buffet and Gates make and lose so much money *daily* in the stock market that any money they were to donate to sponsor TT in the US wouldn't even register as a round off error.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/01/2017 at 1:50am
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I donated a while back. I think he is the hope for USA.


I donated again.  We need to reward his success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danseemiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/01/2017 at 6:49am
Excellent results for Kanak and Lily. Lily is almost world class now and Kanak is on his way.Kunal Chodri played tremendous in the doubles with Lily against Fang Bo and Petrissa Solja. Lily was amazing.
Long term view- without an increase in prize money and with the USOC controlling our association- we will never be better than middle of the pack.
DS
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