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Dealing with high short balls on the forehand

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    Posted: 05/13/2017 at 8:59am
I'm finding out that I'm often struggling to kill short high balls on the forehand corner, especially when the opponent pushes short and I was expecting a deep ball to attack. I think my arms are too short haha.... I think for these kind of balls it's better to use a well placed flip instead of a loopkill right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 11:55am
Keep the ball short until you have an opportunity the open.
Or develop a super human footwork to run far right and kill with a chiquita...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 3:47pm
After several years of practicing, I found that short high balls are unreturnable :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 7:58pm
Tommy-hook them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Tommy-hook them

What is a tommy-hook?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm finding out that I'm often struggling to kill short high balls on the forehand corner, especially when the opponent pushes short and I was expecting a deep ball to attack. I think my arms are too short haha.... I think for these kind of balls it's better to use a well placed flip instead of a loopkill right?

You should really be flip killing them unless you are saying that they are high enough to be smashed or looped.  Smash flips are possible as well, but a well placed flip is good if you are ready to make do with something that works even if it is slightly subpotimal.  As with all such responses, it is hard to diagnose without video.  But the height of the ball means you have line of sight into the table and this is what you should be taking advantage of.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:46am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm finding out that I'm often struggling to kill short high balls on the forehand corner, especially when the opponent pushes short and I was expecting a deep ball to attack. I think my arms are too short haha.... I think for these kind of balls it's better to use a well placed flip instead of a loopkill right?

You should really be flip killing them unless you are saying that they are high enough to be smashed or looped.  Smash flips are possible as well, but a well placed flip is good if you are ready to make do with something that works even if it is slightly subpotimal.  As with all such responses, it is hard to diagnose without video.  But the height of the ball means you have line of sight into the table and this is what you should be taking advantage of.

I definitely have line of sight into the table, but for some reason it almost seems it's always very awkward to apply power when the table is in the way. I can do a weak stable flip, but have absolutely no idea where the mechanism for the FH flip kill comes from. It's definitely something that I have to work on. In contrast, the BH attack of short balls seems so much more natural and easy (probably because I chiquita a lot on the BH side) for me. Sometimes it's even tempting to actually use the BH for balls on the FH side, but I doubt my footwork is that good to allow me to recover.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 7:41pm
The smash flick is like an aggressive forehand counterhit.   There is a whip motion built in. Hard to execute if you are not close to the ball. You have to get the foot under the table and hover over it.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The smash flick is like an aggressive forehand counterhit.   There is a whip motion built in. Hard to execute if you are not close to the ball. You have to get the foot under the table and hover over it.


Do you use the waist much or is it all wrist and forearm action?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The smash flick is like an aggressive forehand counterhit.   There is a whip motion built in. Hard to execute if you are not close to the ball. You have to get the foot under the table and hover over it.


Do you use the waist much or is it all wrist and forearm action?


Nothing is ever all wrist and forearm action. If you have a whippy counterhit, there is a slinging motion that comes from the shoulder that you can used to hit and block and for some people loop. This is the same motion you use on your flicks including the smash ones. Wrist and forearm are of course involved and to some degree the waist but the whip is what creates the effect. It's not going to be a heavily spinny ball but it will have some spin.   That's what messes up the people who have good Chiquita but no basic flip, they don't have a good concept of flat hits.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 6:19am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyBkhSfx6GY

Here is a video.  Notice the way he waves his wrist back and forward.  That motion is initiated by a small circular turn that may be felt most prominently in the elbow, but is actually initiated in the shoulder.  It's a valuable motion.  Try to stop when your racket is flush with your arm.

https://youtu.be/PdyqEgX-Sls?t=2825

Watch about 15 seconds.  How not to do it and how to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC0H6OLL_4M 

The ping skills video is good.


Edited by NextLevel - 05/15/2017 at 6:43am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 9:27am
I never knew the flip and the flip kill were two different shots. I just thought of it as a Flip. Period.

Anyway, according Schlager, it is one of the most difficult shots to produce.

Great links NL!

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

I never knew the flip and the flip kill were two different shots. I just thought of it as a Flip. Period.

Anyway, according Schlager, it is one of the most difficult shots to produce.

Great links NL!

FdT


Thanks.

They are not different strokes and you are right. One is just faster than the other. People often soft flip to place the ball especially down the line or extremely wide. I think the reading of the spin and the footwork is more difficult than the actual stroke. The ball is in front of you for the backhand flip so you see it better. You have a larger stroke for the forehand loop so you are able to make up for timing errors. But the forehand flip is relatively flat and you have to get there on time and if you misread the spin, your margin for error is lower.

Edited by NextLevel - 05/15/2017 at 9:45am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 12:49pm
Flashy but great:


More Fang Bo (and others):



Edited by slevin - 05/15/2017 at 12:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2017 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

After several years of practicing, I found that short high balls are unreturnable :)
if you cannot flip or flip kill, you can try the HIRANO Miu' bh pull.


Edited by Egghead - 05/15/2017 at 6:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2017 at 7:55am
I thought more of bad service returns. Like, I serve short topspin, opponent thinks it's backspin, pushes short and ball jumps 60 cm up, 30  cm from net. In my case it's immediate point for opponent, I cant return this :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2017 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

After several years of practicing, I found that short high balls are unreturnable :)
if you cannot flip or flip kill, you can try the HIRANO Miu' bh pull.


We have been calling that a "Strawberry", as the spin goes in the opposite direction from the Banana. I think I first heard Stefan Feth use that term.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinshiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2017 at 10:47am
Kato Miyu also seems to do this a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR5pNBgwzu8



This stroke is actually very cool to watch 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2017 at 10:59am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyBkhSfx6GY

Here is a video.  Notice the way he waves his wrist back and forward.  That motion is initiated by a small circular turn that may be felt most prominently in the elbow, but is actually initiated in the shoulder.  It's a valuable motion.  Try to stop when your racket is flush with your arm.

https://youtu.be/PdyqEgX-Sls?t=2825

Watch about 15 seconds.  How not to do it and how to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC0H6OLL_4M 

The ping skills video is good.

Thanks, had a look at some of this, I think my problem is that I'm not actually relaxed in the wrist to make the shot. I watched some of the better club players play, and their flicks (even the hard ones) are just silky smooth and effortless. I did get a couple of good flip kills after just relaxing and going through the ball with full commitment. Sometimes relaxing is hard against extremely deceptive serve returns, but it just lifts your game so much all around.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2017 at 11:42am
Originally posted by shinshiro shinshiro wrote:

Kato Miyu also seems to do this a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR5pNBgwzu8



This stroke is actually very cool to watch 
thx for the video. 

a tutorial video is at the right col LOL (in in japanese language Cry)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2017 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm finding out that I'm often struggling to kill short high balls on the forehand corner, especially when the opponent pushes short and I was expecting a deep ball to attack. I think my arms are too short haha.... I think for these kind of balls it's better to use a well placed flip instead of a loopkill right?
Blahness,
from your post I thought you had in mind balls that are a result of a fake kind of push that somehow is high and to your FH. That way, it should not be a topspin ball, but rather a no spin/semi under spin/side spin. Indeed such ones tend to be hard to kill as they are produced somewhat unexpectedly/deceptively, perhaps by a slight mis-hit. 
Instead, this has become a discussion of killing of the typical variants of short balls to your FH, however.
Still, a very interesting compilation...


Edited by JacekGM - 05/21/2017 at 12:30pm
(1) Stiga Cipper Wood (ST, 92 g) with Focus 3 Snipe (red, 2.1 mm, 42 deg) on FH and 0.6mm Dr N. Desperado on BH (2) Juic SBA (Fl, 94 g) with Nimbus Soft (red max) on FH and 0.5mm Curl P1R on BH
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