Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Blade Pitch
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Blade Pitch

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Hozuki View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 477
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Blade Pitch
    Posted: 05/13/2017 at 3:15pm
Ok this might seem like an odd topic, but I'm sure it would help to understand what the pitch that a blade has actually means in terms of playing characteristics.

So what actually affects that pitch? I'm sure the main factors should be hardness and flexibility. Maybe somehow speed as well. Although speed is probably more a result of those factors.

I did some testing with seven different blades I have here, and sorting them by pitch, from lowest to highest, I got an instrument with a scale of H, C#(2x), D#, F, F#. The test was performed with rubbers on. Note that this does not affect the relative pitches of the blades to each other, as long as all have rubbers on. Having different rubbers on each side of one blade did not change the pitch.
Now this is a very small sample, but my findings are that slow flexy blades have much lower sound than stiff fast and hard blades. My guess is that pitch increases with increasing hardness and stiffness. (and speed)

Okay, now fine and dandy, but what is the benefit of gaining knowledge about this? Well, the idea is to try and find blades with a pitch that one likes, thus making it easier to later switch blades, by only switching to those that are around the same pitch, or slightly higher for more speed.

While probably some will be interested in this, I am aware that it will probably be difficult for non-musicians to figure out the relative pitches to the different blades, let alone the exact pitch. But a simple sample of the bounce with rubber recorded with a phone mic should do the trick.

It would really be cool if you shared your thoughts or your blade pitches so that I can make a statistical analysis. Embarrassed
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
arg0 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/22/2009
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2023
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 3:26pm
My suggestion is to have a look here for a mechanical analysis of blade vibration modes, which directly determine pitch:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26762
There are also scientific papers on the subject, linking perceived sound to positive playing impressions.
I can provide links upon interest.

Edit: clarification

Edited by arg0 - 05/13/2017 at 3:33pm
Nexy Arche & Nittaku Violin LG.
Join the Nexy Clan!
Also member of Violin & 1-Ply clans.
Back to Top
Re1Mu2R3 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/23/2009
Location: Chyna
Status: Offline
Points: 415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Re1Mu2R3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 3:34pm
Well I think larger blade volume (either larger head size or thicker) will produce a lower sound as a general rule that's why Joo Se Hyuks and Defplays have low pitch despite being slow. But 1-ply hinokis also sound low despite being rockets.

To be honest I don't think it'll help you much in choosing blades unless you're comparing blades of the same type (5,7-ply wood, 5+2 or 3+2 of the same type of carbon.. ) or better yet, EXACT SAME composition, head size, brand and handle type (I'd choose a lower pitched Clipper Cpen instead of a higher pitched one.).
The lower pitched one should be denser than the higher.
Back to Top
arg0 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/22/2009
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2023
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 3:59pm
In essence, the higher the "pitch", the higher the mechanical stiffness of the blade.
I underlined mechanical, because perceived stiffness may vary, as it is a subjective parameter.
I put "pitch" in quotes because the sound is not a single frequency sound (note), but a whole spectrum of vibration frequencies.
Different players will have different preferred "pitches", because they prefer different stiffnesses of the blades.
Nexy Arche & Nittaku Violin LG.
Join the Nexy Clan!
Also member of Violin & 1-Ply clans.
Back to Top
Hozuki View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 477
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 6:38pm
thanks arg0, that's much more quality information than I had hoped for!

Well, all the complicated schmock aside, it seems there really is a correlation between speed, stiffness and frequency. That is also my experience so far, and this makes it valuable for comparison of prefered blades by speed/stiffness/pitch. And the excel sheet is quite a neat tool for that.
Obviously, it is a simplistic concept and has its limitations, but so does every single factor.

The biggest confusion, however, arises from the many vibrating frequencies. But there is actually never a single frequency you can get with any sound source, not even with an oscillator. The extra frequencies are just not as pronounced as for blade pitch. The percieved pitch is still valuable, as long as the comparisons between the blades are drawn by the same person.
Back to Top
Kolev View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/04/2004
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 1529
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 7:45pm
I know for sure that the pitch matters only when we compare two blades from the same model. As already mentioned, Hinoki 1 ply has rather low pitch, but it is as stiff as rock.The thick balsa blades have the lowest pitch and no flex at all. My ZLC sounds higher, but it's way more flexible than mine Senkoh and Carbon Balsa.........
Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
FH: D05/G1/RX
BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro
Back to Top
Re1Mu2R3 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/23/2009
Location: Chyna
Status: Offline
Points: 415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Re1Mu2R3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/13/2017 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

The thick balsa blades have the lowest pitch....

Does carbon affect pitch because the Yinhe T-11 was the highest pitched blade I've ever played with.
But yeah the lowest pitched blade I currently own is a really thin (5mmish) antique premade 3 ply that came with hardbat pimples that I found at a thrift store.

This thing is thin but UBERSIZE; the entire uncut sheet of a DHS rubber couldn't fit. We had to adjust it so there's about 0.6cm of space from the handle.
Back to Top
Kolev View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/04/2004
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 1529
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 5:06am
Sure carbon affects the sound making it thinner, thus "higher". Typical examples​ are the Rutis Power and T-1(I have them both) BTW, my T-11 had very loud "thock" kind of sound, which I consider low.
Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
FH: D05/G1/RX
BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro
Back to Top
Hozuki View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 477
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 7:08am
hinoki and balsa are very soft woods, so I assume the softer the wood, the lower the pitch. My thick balsa glassfiber blade has the highest pitch of all my blades though, and I would also consider it the fastest. But since any arificial fibers are probably always harder than wood, it still fits the theory.
Back to Top
Kolev View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/04/2004
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 1529
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:11am
I guess there are lots of factors affecting the pitch of a blade. I remember the comparison between Balsa X5 and​ mine Carbon Extreme​ and T-11. There seemed to share similar construction and material,but they sounded so differently. The weight was very different too
Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
FH: D05/G1/RX
BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro
Back to Top
Imago View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/19/2009
Location: Sofia
Status: Offline
Points: 5897
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:53am
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

what is the benefit of gaining knowledge about this?


It's not only the pitch, it's the combination of pitch and lasting reverberation that give me the information I am looking for. Usually, pitch is indicating the style of the blade. Or the tension in kg - if we speak strung tennis racket. I like to play rackets strung in C or D-dur, depending on the material of the strings.

There is an app RacketTune
Back to Top
Hozuki View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 477
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 9:16am
hm, maybe it makes sense to measure the scale a blade has instead of a single pitch. For example, Stiga OC has a scale of F#-Dur and the first pronounced note is A#. If you only measure a single frequency, then you get either A#, C#, or F#. Percieved pitch will also be one of those, depending on the person.
RacketTune sounds interesting, it could provide some useful information.
Back to Top
JacekGM View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/17/2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2356
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 9:32am
Let us hope that perpetual interest eventually will generate progress in understanding.

Edited by JacekGM - 05/14/2017 at 9:32am
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
Back to Top
Kolev View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/04/2004
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 1529
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

hm, maybe it makes sense to measure the scale a blade has instead of a single pitch. For example, Stiga OC has a scale of F#-Dur and the first pronounced note is A#. If you only measure a single frequency, then you get either A#, C#, or F#. Percieved pitch will also be one of those, depending on the person.
RacketTune sounds interesting, it could provide some useful information.

weird, but the OC I measured today sounded in Gb-Dur. Probably a fake one
Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
FH: D05/G1/RX
BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6895
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:28pm
Generally I tell people pitch is negatively correlated to dwell. Low pitch = high dwell favors chopping. High pitch more for hitting
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
Hozuki View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 477
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

hm, maybe it makes sense to measure the scale a blade has instead of a single pitch. For example, Stiga OC has a scale of F#-Dur and the first pronounced note is A#. If you only measure a single frequency, then you get either A#, C#, or F#. Percieved pitch will also be one of those, depending on the person.
RacketTune sounds interesting, it could provide some useful information.

weird, but the OC I measured today sounded in Gb-Dur. Probably a fake one


What? Are you unaware that Gb-Dur equals F#-Dur (at least on the piano) or are you that nitpicky?
Your observation is the same as mine. No fakes involved.

Back to Top
Crowsfeather View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/03/2013
Location: Thailand
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crowsfeather Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2017 at 11:24pm
I test 5 blade all together, and it's Bm7b5.

just kidding.
I believe it MAY effect playing characteristic, but have to be sub-group ---- carbon vs non carbon.
and also innerfiber-also effect the pitch.


I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.658 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.