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Backhand dominant player - reverse > pendulum serv |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Posted: 06/26/2017 at 10:36pm |
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Edited by berndt_mann - 06/26/2017 at 11:03pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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zeio
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After years of reading the western view on human rights conditions in China, and years of posting on this forum as to how severely crippled human rights really are because people are so easily offended, I seriously feel the quote below is nothing more than a mere decoration.
You can't comment on race, color, sex, age...without fearing that someone WILL get offended. Last but not least, if this will make you feel better: |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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He is mocking SmackDat's approach to the thread. More seriously, I agree with you. While I agree with Emrathich and Bran's logic, I find that what is more important in my practice is the kinds of returns that you get. There is no need to argue too strongly with SmackDat, he will develop his own opinions over time. The most backhand oriented player in my club can't do a backhand serve or a reverse pendulum serve even if you paid him to.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Liquid Sky
Member Joined: 02/17/2004 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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You probably would like to explain what you are referring to with this gif?!
I cannot imagine any context in a tabletennis forum in which this would be appropriate. Edited by Liquid Sky - 06/26/2017 at 5:16pm |
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XIOM - Vega Pro (2,0 mm) |
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zeio
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Edited by zeio - 06/26/2017 at 4:57pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Bran
Super Member Joined: 06/18/2013 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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Of course, it's schematic and not meant to be absolute. In fairness, I haven't watched the video and only explained the reasoning behind the statement, as it's something I've experienced myself. I'm also FH-oriented, and I also serve reverse pendulum from time to time. Most players I encounter don't dare go wide FH so I tend to still stay on the BH side to prepare for a return to the middle, which is where the ball will go if they don't firmly commit on the return and only vaguely aim for the BH. Unfortunately, this means I get caught out from time to time against better receivers who use the serve's side spin to simply guide the ball to the other corner. I think that's another related example of the relation between the serve and where we stand after the serve, how we want to play the third ball. Edited by Bran - 06/26/2017 at 4:12pm |
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SmackDAT
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Yes, I was unsure as to whether this was a thing, Emratthich himself validated it on the thread!
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Liquid Sky
Member Joined: 02/17/2004 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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So you did start this thread NOT to discuss about this topic? You only wanted to have your/ EmRatThich's opinion confirmed?
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SmackDAT
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Boll switches grips heavily between forehand and backhand, so while his forehand is arguably better than his backhand, he has a strong backhand as well due to the change in grips. Of course, Ma Long has a reverse and ZJK has a pendulum, and while it isn't "ideal" for their game, it is needed to create serve diversity which is just as important at an elite level
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SmackDAT
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That is the reason why I made this thread!! It seems counter intuitive but Bran and Emratthich clearly and logically explain why this is a thing. Ovtcharov, FZD, ZJK all have killer reverse/bh serves. Ma Long/Yan An/Ding Ning have their trademark pendulum and REVERSE tomahawk serves (which has the same spin as pendulum, ever wonder why DN doesn't use normal tomahawk)? |
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Liquid Sky
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Yes, this makes sense. However, it is a very unflexible approach. I am a VH dominant player. I use the RPS a lot. Due to the sidespin I impart on the ball, the return of the opponent always tends towards my VH side. Although my opponents need to direct their bat towards my backhand side to compensate for the sidespin, they almost always return to my middle or VH side. Since I know in advance that the return will probably be directed towards the middle/vh side, I am able to attack with my dominant VH. Of course I position myself more to the middle in case I use the RPS. Even when it makes sense that you will serve in a way to prevent your opponent from out-placing you it makes even more sense to serve in a way to be able to attack with your dominant side. Maybe if you reach a very high level it is more important to prevent your opponent from attacking your weak spot after your serve, but I see myself in a dominant position when serving. Therefore I am trying to serve in a way to open up with my dominant VH and even my main practice partner, who is a former national team member and German Bundesliga player, cannot out-place me into my wide VH after using the RPS. Furthermore there is one prominent example for a VH dominant player who is using the RPS a lot: Timo Boll. |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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This. Much of the other claims in the thread don't make sense.
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SmackDAT
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Yeah agree, Ovtcharov has a nasty pendulum, ZJK and FZD always had. Ma Long, Mizutani, Yan An have the occasional reverse, notice that they rarely serve it as often as their BH oriented compatriots.
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koshkin
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I mostly agree with that. One observation I have is that people tend to play against spin, rather than with spin. I prefer to open with the BH, so a reverse pendulum serve affords me more opportunities to do so. If the opponent figures out how to return the reverse pendulum in a way that is uncomfortable for me, I switch to a regular pendulum serve.
Against some people, mixing up serves is the only viable way to go. Against others, I can sit on one serve for a while until they get used to it. It really varies. ILya
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NextLevel
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I honestly believe the pendulum forehand and reverse pendulum backhand dynamic is a bit overrated. Any form of pendulum serve is based on a desire to open with the forehand, even the reverse pendulum. Many backhand oriented players do not want to do a cross step to the wide forehand but that is supposedly what they have to do if they are to follow the traditional logic for doing and placing reverse pendulum serves.
I just look at what sidespin and placement my opponent doesn't return well and play off that. I really don't care what serve or spin it is. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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SmackDAT
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Huh? This thread was to discuss optimal tactics depending on playing style, looking at two polar extremes (complete forehand biased vs backhand biased player)
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blahness
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Personally, once I identify the serve as a RPS serve, I automatically angle the bat towards your BH side to counteract the sidespin as that is the safest way of handling the ball. This leads to more often than not the ball being placed there... the down-the-line push to your FH is of higher risk (because you're essentially borrowing the opponent's spin, and there's less table length to work with) and going to the FH of a FH dominant player is usually suicide :( I notice that a lot of my hook serves (which have the same amount of sidespin) also get pushed back to my BH in a similar fashion, not many players dare to play the return down the line to my FH... Now if you serve the RPS to the FH-short corner, most likely you would be facing a short push to your FH/middle corner, a long-push to the middle, or a flip in general. For shakehand players this serve is kryptonite as the FH receive there is just not very flexible unlike the BH. The problem with serving to the FH-short corner is there's a lot less room for error in terms of serve length, it is very easy to accidentally serve long and get punished by the opponent's FH loop. |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
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Agreed... I happen to think that the hook serve is even harder to read because they are so rare in the game, at my level they usually misread it the worst out of all my serve patterns, even the higher level players. |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Liquid Sky
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I was referring to my way of playing. If you guys now better what my experience is, then so be it... |
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SmackDAT
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Nah, pendulum serves are better for forehand oriented players. Reverse serves are for backhand oriented players, tactically. You want to be in the dominant position, which is using your forehand on the backhand side, jammed to the opponent's backhand. If you open up with forehand on the forehand side, you will be playing to their strength, and playing down the line is weaker and will allow them to force you wide to the backhand. |
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SmackDAT
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It's not about the magnitude of the spin, it's about how you can use it (via deception) against your opponent :)
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Liquid Sky
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So, either you are returning these serves very well or your opponents do not put a lot of side spin into their serves. |
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bbkon
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reverse is more hard to read |
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SmackDAT
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Ok, but my point was there is significantly more deception if you can do a reverse properly, which, once you pass the threshold level that the majority of players can fully read your backspin serves, it won't be difficult to serve a decent reverse. Make sense?
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blahness
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Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin... |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Liquid Sky
Member Joined: 02/17/2004 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.
Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side. |
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blahness
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Not many players use it well enough because it's very insanely complicated... But I've encountered some really nasty ones from high level players... Personally I like hook serves like Miu Hirano's ones, they are just extremely effective and easy to learn too! I do all my serves with a full grip now, it's just too much work to change grips after service... |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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ChichoFicho
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The RPS is hugely overestimated. Nothing special about it. You can get the same spin and direction of rotation with a simple backhand serve while facing the table, ready for the return. I can't stop laughing when I see many beginners trying to master this serve because they saw some pro player using it.
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Vlad0
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I love reverse pendulum when using Innerforce ZLC from time to time. It's so natural, easy to place and deceptive but it's not at all the same with the Viscaria
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SmackDAT
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That's a poor analogy, just like saying, there's no point saving money to buy a Benz if you have a lower quality functional car. Backhand serve has way less deception which is significant once you pass a certain level threshold.
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