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    Posted: 05/27/2017 at 11:49pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqhsKCogWhQ

Can someone explain what he's saying from 9:37 onwards? Reverse pendulum for backhand dominated player, so it goes to the middle, to prevent them from blocking wide to the forehand?

If it goes to the middle they still can, but is it better because you're already in the middle so you can easily reach both sides?

Thanks


Edited by SmackDAT - 05/27/2017 at 11:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 1:17am
For me it's more about the direction of the sidespin that your opponent returns, and limiting your opponent's angles. If you serve reverse pendulum to your opponent's middle/BH, it is quite hard for your opponent to create a big angle to your wide forehand (due to the sidespin of the safe BH push return inevitably going the opposite direction - towards your BH), so you don't need to cover that much area with your forehand and can stay in the middle of the table and be ready to attack on both wings. If you serve pendulum, it is quite hard for the opponent to create a huge angle on your BH side due to the same reason, so you don't need to cover that much area with your BH. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 1:29am
In Chinese material, the description goes like the following.

The reverse pendulum serve is often used when the player is capable of opening the point with either the forehand or backhand, especially suited for those who has a strong backhand opener.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanhao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 7:54am
I also dunno whats the logic behind...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 8:57am
A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6Finger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

In Chinese material, the description goes like the following.

The reverse pendulum serve is often used when the player is capable of opening the point with either the forehand or backhand, especially suited for those who has a strong backhand opener.


Chinese material maybe available in english?
If so, would greatly appreciate some info.

Edited by 6Finger - 05/28/2017 at 1:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EmRatThich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.

Exactly! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2017 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.
Thanks :) now I just have to practice my reverse! I find it so hard to get short.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2017 at 3:26am
There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2017 at 3:50am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. Although the spin is similar, you tend to get better deception and also more flexibility (serving two kinds of sidespin from the same stance) with the reverse pendulum. 

I personally don't use it as a bread and butter serve, because it's just too complicated to master and the return on your spin can be quite nasty as well. I very much prefer the half-tomahawk and the hook serve which allows me great control on the placement and spin and the backswing is almost identical with the pendulum serve, giving a great deal of surprise to the opponents. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2017 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.
That's a poor analogy, just like saying, there's no point saving money to buy a Benz if you have a lower quality functional car.

Backhand serve has way less deception which is significant once you pass a certain level threshold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vlad0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 2:09am
I love reverse pendulum when using Innerforce ZLC from time to time. It's so natural, easy to place and deceptive but it's not at all the same with the Viscaria Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 3:13am
The RPS is hugely overestimated. Nothing special about it. You can get the same spin and direction of rotation with a simple backhand serve while facing the table, ready for the return. I can't stop laughing when I see many beginners trying to master this serve because they saw some pro player using it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 5:45am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:


The RPS is hugely overestimated. Nothing special about it. You can get the same spin and direction of rotation with a simple backhand serve while facing the table, ready for the return. I can't stop laughing when I see many beginners trying to master this serve because they saw some pro player using it.


Not many players use it well enough because it's very insanely complicated... But I've encountered some really nasty ones from high level players... Personally I like hook serves like Miu Hirano's ones, they are just extremely effective and easy to learn too! I do all my serves with a full grip now, it's just too much work to change grips after service...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 5:47am
Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 6:20am
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.


Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 6:51am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

The RPS is hugely overestimated. Nothing special about it. You can get the same spin and direction of rotation with a simple backhand serve while facing the table, ready for the return. I can't stop laughing when I see many beginners trying to master this serve because they saw some pro player using it.
Ok, but my point was there is significantly more deception if you can do a reverse properly, which, once you pass the threshold level that the majority of players can fully read your backspin serves, it won't be difficult to serve a decent reverse. Make sense? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 10:32am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.


reverse is more hard to read
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 11:37am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.


Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin...


So, either you are returning these serves very well or your opponents do not put a lot of side spin into their serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 11:45am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.


reverse is more hard to read
It's not about the magnitude of the spin, it's about how you can use it (via deception) against your opponent :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.


Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin...


So, either you are returning these serves very well or your opponents do not put a lot of side spin into their serves.
Nah, pendulum serves are better for forehand oriented players. Reverse serves are for backhand oriented players, tactically.

You want to be in the dominant position, which is using your forehand on the backhand side, jammed to the opponent's backhand. If you open up with forehand on the forehand side, you will be playing to their strength, and playing down the line is weaker and will allow them to force you wide to the backhand.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2017 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.


Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin...


So, either you are returning these serves very well or your opponents do not put a lot of side spin into their serves.

Nah, pendulum serves are better for forehand oriented players. Reverse serves are for backhand oriented players, tactically.

You want to be in the dominant position, which is using your forehand on the backhand side, jammed to the opponent's backhand. If you open up with forehand on the forehand side, you will be playing to their strength, and playing down the line is weaker and will allow them to force you wide to the backhand.




I was referring to my way of playing. If you guys now better what my experience is, then so be it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2017 at 9:04am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

There is no point in wasting that much time learning the reverse pendulum serve when you can get the same ball rotation with a backhand serve facing the table.


reverse is more hard to read


Agreed...

I happen to think that the hook serve is even harder to read because they are so rare in the game, at my level they usually misread it the worst out of all my serve patterns, even the higher level players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2017 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.


Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin...


So, either you are returning these serves very well or your opponents do not put a lot of side spin into their serves.

Personally, once I identify the serve as a RPS serve, I automatically angle the bat towards your BH side to counteract the sidespin as that is the safest way of handling the ball. This leads to more often than not the ball being placed there... the down-the-line push to your FH is of higher risk (because you're essentially borrowing the opponent's spin, and there's less table length to work with) and going to the FH of a FH dominant player is usually suicide :(

I notice that a lot of my hook serves (which have the same amount of sidespin) also get pushed back to my BH in a similar fashion, not many players dare to play the return down the line to my FH...   

Now if you serve the RPS to the FH-short corner, most likely you would be facing a short push to your FH/middle corner, a long-push to the middle, or a flip in general. For shakehand players this serve is kryptonite as the FH receive there is just not very flexible unlike the BH. The problem with serving to the FH-short corner is there's a lot less room for error in terms of serve length, it is very easy to accidentally serve long and get punished by the opponent's FH loop.  

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2017 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, with a backhand serve you can basically create the same serves as with the RPS. However from my experience people are very used to backhand serves and can read the sound easily while they are not used to the seldomly used RPS.

Furthermore I cannot follow the arguments about RPS and backhand dominance. As I am a forehand dominant player I like to open up with my forehand after the serve. Therefore I use the RPS a lot to get returns played into my forehand side.


Not sure how you force that, but my default mode of receiving reverse pendulums (especially those to the BH) is to jam the middle. It also happens to be the safest receive... It's usually quite difficult to put it to the FH because your bat would be angled towards the BH side to counteract the sidespin...


So, either you are returning these serves very well or your opponents do not put a lot of side spin into their serves.

Nah, pendulum serves are better for forehand oriented players. Reverse serves are for backhand oriented players, tactically.

You want to be in the dominant position, which is using your forehand on the backhand side, jammed to the opponent's backhand. If you open up with forehand on the forehand side, you will be playing to their strength, and playing down the line is weaker and will allow them to force you wide to the backhand.




I was referring to my way of playing. If you guys now better what my experience is, then so be it...
Huh? This thread was to discuss optimal tactics depending on playing style, looking at two polar extremes (complete forehand biased vs backhand biased player)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2017 at 10:10am
I honestly believe the pendulum forehand and reverse pendulum backhand dynamic is a bit overrated. Any form of pendulum serve is based on a desire to open with the forehand, even the reverse pendulum. Many backhand oriented players do not want to do a cross step to the wide forehand but that is supposedly what they have to do if they are to follow the traditional logic for doing and placing reverse pendulum serves.

I just look at what sidespin and placement my opponent doesn't return well and play off that. I really don't care what serve or spin it is.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2017 at 10:24pm
I mostly agree with that.  One observation I have is that people tend to play against spin, rather than with spin.  I prefer to open with the BH, so a reverse pendulum serve affords me more opportunities to do so.  If the opponent figures out how to return the reverse pendulum in a way that is uncomfortable for me, I switch to a regular pendulum serve.

Against some people, mixing up serves is the only viable way to go.  Against others, I can sit on one serve for a while until they get used to it.  It really varies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2017 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I mostly agree with that.  One observation I have is that people tend to play against spin, rather than with spin.  I prefer to open with the BH, so a reverse pendulum serve affords me more opportunities to do so.  If the opponent figures out how to return the reverse pendulum in a way that is uncomfortable for me, I switch to a regular pendulum serve.

Against some people, mixing up serves is the only viable way to go.  Against others, I can sit on one serve for a while until they get used to it.  It really varies.

ILya
Yeah agree,

Ovtcharov has a nasty pendulum, ZJK and FZD always had.

Ma Long, Mizutani, Yan An have the occasional reverse, notice that they rarely serve it as often as their BH oriented compatriots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 hours 23 minutes ago at 11:37am
Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.

This.

Much of the other claims in the thread don't make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 12 minutes ago at 12:48pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.

This.

Much of the other claims in the thread don't make sense.

Yes, this makes sense.
However, it is a very unflexible approach.

I am a VH dominant player. I use the RPS a lot. Due to the sidespin I impart on the ball, the return of the opponent always tends towards my VH side. Although my opponents need to direct their bat towards my backhand side to compensate for the sidespin, they almost always return to my middle or VH side. Since I know in advance that the return will probably be directed towards the middle/vh side, I am able to attack with my dominant VH. Of course I position myself more to the middle in case I use the RPS.

Even when it makes sense that you will serve in a way to prevent your opponent from out-placing you it makes even more sense to serve in a way to be able to attack with your dominant side.  

Maybe if you reach a very high level it is more important to prevent your opponent from attacking your weak spot after your serve, but I see myself in a dominant position when serving. Therefore I am trying to serve in a way to open up with my dominant VH and even my main practice partner, who is a former national team member and German Bundesliga player, cannot out-place me into my wide VH after using the RPS.

Furthermore there is one prominent example for a VH dominant player who is using the RPS a lot: Timo Boll.


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