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Backhand dominant player - reverse > pendulum serv

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SmackDAT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.

This.

Much of the other claims in the thread don't make sense.
That is the reason why I made this thread!! It seems counter intuitive but Bran and Emratthich clearly and logically explain why this is a thing.

Ovtcharov, FZD, ZJK all have killer reverse/bh serves.

Ma Long/Yan An/Ding Ning have their trademark pendulum and REVERSE tomahawk serves (which has the same spin as pendulum, ever wonder why DN doesn't use normal tomahawk)?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

A FH dominant player will want to cover the table with his FH after the serve, including by stepping around his BH. He will anticipate this by positioning himself more to the BH after his serve. Regular pendulum has side spin that makes the ball naturally go to the BH, and conversely makes it harder for the receiver to put it wide to the FH, which is the hardest to cover in that position.

A BH dominant or balanced player will reposition himself more to the middle of the table, so his weakness in this case is a wide ball to the BH. Similarly, a reverse pendulum makes it harder to put the ball there, since the side spin naturally makes it drift towards the FH.

This.

Much of the other claims in the thread don't make sense.

Yes, this makes sense.
However, it is a very unflexible approach.

I am a VH dominant player. I use the RPS a lot. Due to the sidespin I impart on the ball, the return of the opponent always tends towards my VH side. Although my opponents need to direct their bat towards my backhand side to compensate for the sidespin, they almost always return to my middle or VH side. Since I know in advance that the return will probably be directed towards the middle/vh side, I am able to attack with my dominant VH. Of course I position myself more to the middle in case I use the RPS.

Even when it makes sense that you will serve in a way to prevent your opponent from out-placing you it makes even more sense to serve in a way to be able to attack with your dominant side.  

Maybe if you reach a very high level it is more important to prevent your opponent from attacking your weak spot after your serve, but I see myself in a dominant position when serving. Therefore I am trying to serve in a way to open up with my dominant VH and even my main practice partner, who is a former national team member and German Bundesliga player, cannot out-place me into my wide VH after using the RPS.

Furthermore there is one prominent example for a VH dominant player who is using the RPS a lot: Timo Boll.


Boll switches grips heavily between forehand and backhand, so while his forehand is arguably better than his backhand, he has a strong backhand as well due to the change in grips.

Of course, Ma Long has a reverse and ZJK has a pendulum, and while it isn't "ideal" for their game, it is needed to create serve diversity which is just as important at an elite level
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

That is the reason why I made this thread!!

So you did start this thread NOT to discuss about this topic?

You only wanted to have your/ EmRatThich's opinion confirmed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

That is the reason why I made this thread!!

So you did start this thread NOT to discuss about this topic?

You only wanted to have your/ EmRatThich's opinion confirmed?
Yes, I was unsure as to whether this was a thing, Emratthich himself validated it on the thread!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Yes, this makes sense.
However, it is a very unflexible approach.

Of course, it's schematic and not meant to be absolute. In fairness, I haven't watched the video and only explained the reasoning behind the statement, as it's something I've experienced myself.

I'm also FH-oriented, and I also serve reverse pendulum from time to time. Most players I encounter don't dare go wide FH so I tend to still stay on the BH side to prepare for a return to the middle, which is where the ball will go if they don't firmly commit on the return and only vaguely aim for the BH. Unfortunately, this means I get caught out from time to time against better receivers who use the serve's side spin to simply guide the ball to the other corner.

I think that's another related example of the relation between the serve and where we stand after the serve, how we want to play the third ball.

Edited by Bran - 06/26/2017 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

That is the reason why I made this thread!!


So you did start this thread NOT to discuss about this topic?

You only wanted to have your/ EmRatThich's opinion confirmed?

Yes, I was unsure as to whether this was a thing, Emratthich himself validated it on the thread!



Edited by zeio - 06/26/2017 at 4:57pm
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+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 5:15pm
You probably would like to explain what you are referring to with this gif?!

I cannot imagine any context in a tabletennis forum in which this would be appropriate.

Edited by Liquid Sky - 06/26/2017 at 5:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

You probably would like to explain what you are referring to with this gif?!

I cannot imagine any context in a tabletennis forum in which this would be appropriate.

He is mocking SmackDat's approach to the thread.

More seriously, I agree with you.  While I agree with Emrathich and Bran's logic, I find that what is more important in my practice is the kinds of returns that you get. There is no need to argue too strongly with SmackDat, he will develop his own opinions over time.  The most backhand oriented player in my club can't do a backhand serve or a reverse pendulum serve even if you paid him to.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 5:50pm
After years of reading the western view on human rights conditions in China, and years of posting on this forum as to how severely crippled human rights really are because people are so easily offended, I seriously feel the quote below is nothing more than a mere decoration.

Quote Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction.


You can't comment on race, color, sex, age...without fearing that someone WILL get offended.

Last but not least, if this will make you feel better:

Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2017 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

After years of reading the western view on human rights conditions in China, and years of posting on this forum as to how severely crippled human rights really are because people are so easily offended, I seriously feel the quote below is nothing more than a mere decoration.

Quote Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction.


You can't comment on race, color, sex, age...without fearing that someone WILL get offended.

Last but not least, if this will make you feel better:

In the United States, under the First Amendment to the Constitution, speech, even speech that some may find offensive, is permitted unless it is in the judgment of a court obscene, slanderous, libelous, or inciteful to violence or panic.  Leeway is given to speech or writings that are viewed as satirical.  For example, none of the Tucson, Arizona police have come after me for posting sarcastic posts to this forum.  Members of the United States Armed Forces are not allowed to speak ill to their superiors, be they non-commissioned or officers, under penalty of non-judicial punishment or in more extreme cases a court martial.  Children may face expulsion from school or detention at school for being bratty to their teachers or their principal.  Policemen and firefighters, as well as for example physicians, do not play the smart ass to their bosses.  Neither do employees in general, as an employee not covered by a contract for a specific period of time or belonging to a union can be fired for any reason or no reason at all.

In the United States, it is most likely true that if you make a derogatory comment about someone's color, race, sex or age, that someone will be offended.  If your comment is so offensive as to amount to "fighting words" (depending on what you say, not necessarily protected as free speech), you may get busted upside the head or slapped on the cheek but you probably won't be jailed.

Also, there is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says you can't be a flaming asshole, so long as you don't commit any crimes while being one.

Now what was the subject of this post again before it became derailed?  Oh yeah, the backhand dominant player and the reverse pendulum service and how to return it.

A good question.  I've never employed a reverse pendulum service but if I were facing one I'd probably try to return it to the middle of the table and hope that my opponent doesn't crack it off my playing elbow.
.



Edited by berndt_mann - 06/26/2017 at 11:03pm
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