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Interesting blog on plastlic balls |
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Baal 
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 Posted: 08/03/2017 at 3:04pm |
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I disagree that spin is somehow "less important" among elite players now. A few players are playing closer in and taking the ball earlier off the bounce, but they are spinning it like crazy.
We might see an era with good players at 15, but I suspect that Harimoto may turn out to be a once in a generation player and that this will not be common at all. The very nature of the argument though about the effect of changes in balls is that we are comparing different eras! The thing that we can't really know is how would Harimoto be doing now if we were still using celluloid balls so this whole discussion can never reach a definite conclusion. My best guess is that he would be doing much the same because I have the impression that a lot of what top players are doing now (guys like FZD for example) they would have been doing anyway (and indeed you can see when they were younger and still using celluloid). But really, who knows? |
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benfb
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 3:31pm |
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I suspect we all love to watch videos of top pros, but my observations differ from yours. I see much less spin and more driving and more early hits. Players who really depended upon heavy top spin have had to learn to either adapt or die. Timo comes to mind.
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Baal
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 3:39pm |
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I was watching these guys close up in Dusseldorf. The spin is insane.
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koshkin
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 4:04pm |
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I am probably one of the comparatively few people who really likes playing with the plastic ball. Producing spin with it is a little different, since you need a different contact. I suspect that once everyone properly adjusts, the spin levels will not be too different from what we have with the 40mm celluloid ball.
I like the fact the plastic ball is harder than the celluloid one. I can make a more forceful contact and it is more consistent. The biggest difference I see is with how spin effect the ball's path. It curves less through the air, so it is difficult to tell the spin based on how the ball flies. However, when it makes contact with the table, the bounce is strongly effected by the spin. For people like me, this is a good thing. My game is based around heavy spin with all sorts of side spin and top spin variations. However, my original point remains: once everyone is sufficiently used to the new ball, the game is not going to look terribly different from the celluloid ball. ILya
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BTY Mazunov ST
Dignics 05 |
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benfb
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 4:19pm |
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We'll have to agree to disagree then. I would say the change is huge and will become more so.
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koshkin
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 4:21pm |
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The nice thing about this one is that we do not have to agree or disagree. We can just wait and see. ILya
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BTY Mazunov ST
Dignics 05 |
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arg0
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 4:21pm |
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Very entertaining, thanks for the link. But I did not have the impression that he self-destructed... he lost 21-19 in the 5th game and 19th point of Waldner (20-18 to 20-19) was simply amazing! he kept attacking despite Applegren bringing everything back and eventually made the point. |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 5:25pm |
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My main concern now with the seamless ones is that they play so terribly right out of the box. Once you use them a while they're OK.
But then you go to a tournament and they break out new boxes. Better to break them in a couple hours first, seriously. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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zeio
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 5:47pm |
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Can't blame him.
By the same token, celluloid was the first plastic in human history. So using the term plastic ball to differentiate 40+ from 38mm/40mm balls is in itself a misnomer. Edited by zeio - 08/03/2017 at 5:48pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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DreiZ
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 5:54pm |
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You gotta lick 'em before you play 'em! - Dima Ovtcharov 2016 moto That's why the thread is named "... plastlic balls"  No but seriously, almost every batch of XSF balls ive received were wobbly out of the box (min of 4 out of 6 balls), and you can notice it during play immediately. QC still not good. NP40+ are still the king of the plastic balls. I dislike that they lose their bright white color very fast but i think that happens with every ball, except maybe the G40+. |
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Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm USATT: 1725 |
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zeio
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 6:02pm |
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It's 50% for a 5g difference, 
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Baal
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 6:49pm |
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I am not sure I like it. Now I am accustomed to them, which is somewhat different. I like NP40 and D40+, they are just as fun as anything else we had before, at least for me. The original 40+ seamed balls were truly awful, though. I don't see it as a crisis. I spin from both sides. I made a few changes, but not major ones. The thing I had tbe most trouble with was serving as effectively as before. So I put in time with buckets of balls. |
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young dude
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 6:51pm |
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Not to derail the thread, but the scenario where Harimoto turns out to be a once in a generation talent is less likely than not. He is very good for his age, but if similarly aged Chinese players are given as many chances to compete in tournaments as he, he won't seem as special.
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Baal
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 7:36pm |
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14 year olds at 18 in the world? I doubt China has very many of those. But we will see.
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benfb
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 7:42pm |
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For any given set of playing conditions -- set of rules, available legal equipment, etc. -- some players will naturally adapt better and others will do worse. Harimoto is naturally inclined to play with the current rules and the poly ball. If you put him in the era of 1990, I suspect he wouldn't do as well. The interesting thing is that there are probably upcoming juniors (including Japanese) who don't look that great with poly balls but might have really shone with speed glue and 38mm celluloid balls. As to whether there are a bunch of hidden Chinese prodigies who would do just as well if given the opportunity, that's speculation. No one doubts the success of the Chinese system (at least until the recent coaching changes), but being bigger doesn't always make you stronger. Otherwise, Sweden 1980-2004 would never have happened. |
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young dude
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 7:54pm |
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The assertion that similarly aged Chinese kids have a chance to do as well as Harimoto isn't based on the assumption that there are hidden Chinese prodigies. The point is that while I give Harimoto all the credit where it's due, I don't think he's as much a "talent" as some have made him out to be. For a young kid, he's given (ok, earned) tremendous opportunities to compete in big tournaments that accelerated his growth and profile. I do admit that most kids his age won't have the same success even if given the opportunities. However, I'd be surprised if there aren't young kids in China who would succeed at least comparably to Harimoto, just based on the overwhelming number of players in China, but unlike Harimoto, they are never given the chance because of the competition in China. You may already know this, but Harimoto's parents are both from China, who went to Japan so Harimoto would have a much easier path to succeed more, and at a younger age, in Japan.
Edited by young dude - 08/03/2017 at 8:00pm |
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benfb
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 8:06pm |
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If a kid in China doesn't get to move up because of the competition, that would imply the competition is stronger and they will do better internationally. That kid who never got past the local competition is more likely to be an international failure, although there are always possible exceptions. |
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young dude
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Posted: 08/03/2017 at 9:05pm |
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Man now we're really derailing the thread :P Think about the following for a second: All things equal, Harimoto being the same Harimoto with the same skill sets, do you think he would have nearly as much success and exposure as he does now if he were a Chinese kid competing in China? To qualify to compete in as many Opens (let alone the World Championships), he'd be competing against Chinese adults vs. Japanese adults. I think that's the point I did not clearly communicate before. Stronger competition in China is stifling super young table tennis players from becoming prodigies only in the sense that they are competing against Chinese adults to play in world tournaments, which is a problem Harimoto does not have in Japan. Thus he is afforded the opportunities and exposures to grow and showcase himself because such opportunities are simply not within the realm of reality for a similarly skilled Chinese kid.
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1dennistt
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 8:23am |
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There is also the question of whether he would have been allowed to develop his "style" of play in the Chinese system, or would he have been channeled into a more traditional style of play?
I suspect the latter, and who knows if he would have succeeded, or had as much success in their system. In Japan he found the environment he needed to become the player we see on stage now, but of course that is obvious. He also came along at the perfect time to take advantage of the changes occurring in our sport.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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Basquests
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 3:02pm |
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This is nonsense. Ma Long was the best before and after the ball change Yes, the landscape has changed slightly, but the players who are more versatile are the ones who are better at adapting. The game had been moving towards 3rd ball attack, simply because that is the best strategy from a game theory perspective. Professionals have 'good' loops that are difficult to control. They are not that exploitable. Therefore, if you can reliably loop before your opponent, you are likelier to win the point than not [Again 2 professionals. Not a 2500 player vs a 1300 player. Even if the 1300 player loops and gets it on, they aren't favored to win the point]. Finally, there are a million different things that change your chance of winning a point from 40% to 41%...all the way to 60% on the day. The ball being plastic or celluloid is just one of them. For a professional, their games are already as optimized as they can realistically be. For them, the ball change might have slightly benefitted their career or not. In short, amateurs like us need to worry about the million things we can change in our game and focus on them, rather than the things we can't [i.e. the ball, the size of the rackets, opponents rubbers]. It's far better for improving our chances of winning a point. If you win 65% of points against 1500 level players, 50% of points vs 2000 level players, and 35% against 2300 players, focus on losing 5 kilos, or gaining some muscle/ improving footwork, improving consistency, adding variety/serves to your game. Instead of thinking 'I would win 66/51/36% of points vs those 1500/2000/2300 players' with a celluloid ball. But assume if you win 51% of points in a match, you probably win the match [as in you are likely to]. Do you think Harimoto is sitting at above 50% with plastic against ranked players, and like 35% with celluloid? No, of course not. It's more like 52% vs 48% or something at most. So whilst it could be important, its not like its taking people who would be ranked 500th to the top 20. You can reduce the % difference by adapting / improving as someone has pointed out. That's worth something too... a player who falls apart if 1 or 2 things go wrong [i.e. a net cord], is not mentally the same player as an equally talented player who doesn't spew off the set when they get unlucky/something goes against them. They are mentally stronger, ergo, a stronger player...the game isn't just about your hands. Edited by Basquests - 08/05/2017 at 6:44am |
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mts388
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 4:43pm |
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Nice post Basquests
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Baal
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 8:15pm |
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I think the game was heading to its current direction before the 40+ ball was introduced. If anything, I suspect the earlier low-bouncing cellulose acetate versions delayed it. Harimoto came up on this thread because of the argument that he and Miu Hirano are only possible because of 40+ balls. I think there are several other factors that are far more likely to explain their success, especially since their styles relative to their competition are really not alike at all. He kind of has to play the way he does now because of his size and strength. I suspect he will be different when he is 20! People have also suggested very implausibly large numbers for to the percent reduction in spin that comes from the 40+ balls. They are in fact a little slower and a little less spinny but the numbers people are throwing out are just that -- thrown out on the basis of nothing at all. The numbers people throw out mean nothing more than "this is how much I dislike 40+ balls". The worst thing about the last three years is that we have had so many different kinds of 40+ balls to play with, and for quite awhile the ones used most commonly were really really bad. That is finally starting to change. But people have written all sorts of things about "the" 40+ ball as if there was just one. Iin fact early Chinese seamed versions, the ABS versions like D40+ and NP40+ and the horrible Butterfly G40+ are all so different from each other that there aren't that many things we can generalize about except for sure they are all a little bigger and heavier than celluloid and therefore slower and less spinny. But, the ABS seamed balls from DHS and Nittaku are definitely the closest things to celluloid that we have. On this I have no doubt whatsoever, and it was obvious to me the first time I played with a NP40. Fortunately, the DHS versions are round, super durable, and not insanely expensive. There are people out there still complaining that table tennis allowed inverted sponge rackets, so I imagine this argument too will never die. I for one just want a stable period without constant rules changes.
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haggisv
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 8:18pm |
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He said "the harder surface of plastic which makes it impossible to give the ball as much spin as with celluloid balls".
This might well be true, but what is the logic behind this? |
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Baal
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 8:33pm |
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This came up some time earlier. There was thread, where if I remember correctly, wturber convinced me that in table tennis I'm not sure we even have an ideal or at least single definition of spin! Is it the angular frequency (radians/sec)? Or the angular momentum (kg-m2/sec)? Is it the kinetic energy that can be attributed to the rotation of the ball, as opposed to its translation in space? And the effects of a change in the radius and weight of the ball will depend on which of those things we talk about. I am not a physicist or engineer, so I hope engineers like zeio can comment on this more. On an earlier thread on this a few months ago we got to talking about the "spin effect" of a ball, which is all the ways its behavior can change as a result of its spin, including its arc in the air, its bounce off the table, its reaction with the opponent's racket, etc. etc. And changes in ball diameter and weight will not affect all those things the same way, also it depends some on things like surface texture, maybe even what table you are playing on.
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qpskfec
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 9:35pm |
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Spin in the golf is typically measured in rpm. There are many pro shops where anyone can use a professional fitting device that measures: club head speed, ball launch speed, launch angle, and spin rate. These are used to fit a driver with the specs that will optimize distance. (Maybe if you put a tt ball on the tee and hit it with a paddle, the machine can read the same data for a tt ball. It would be an interesting experiment)
As far as tt goes, a spinning ball does have 2 components of energy. It has linear velocity and rotational velocity, both have their own kinetic energy. You can't separate the two in the context of tt because you are hitting a moving object that has both. It could be that people can block plastic balls on the table more than cell balls because the velocity is lower and the spin is lower. It could also be related to the relative hardness or elasticity of balls. As noted, no way to tell without real data. From my own experience with various balls, I don't believe the spin rate reduction is huge. I practice regularly with an ex international level player. We usually hit with Yinhe, D40+, or NP40+. Once in a while someone shows up with a cell ball. It really doesn't what ball we use, he adjusts very fast and spins the crap out of any ball. He definitely spins the cell ball more, but the difference is not huge. Edited by qpskfec - 08/04/2017 at 9:39pm |
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book4all
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 10:04pm |
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Sometimes people keep arguing and forgot why they are arguing. I would like to quote the following statements from the original linked article again:
"The recent 2014-2015 table tennis season brought a radical new change to the sport: plastic balls began to replace celluloid balls at the most important events under the tutorage of ITTF..."
"Plastic balls produce a different sound than celluloid balls, but the most important difference between the two is the harder surface of plastic which makes it impossible to give the ball as much spin as with celluloid balls. " "The fact is that plastic balls have already significantly changed the game, evolving it to be played with less spin and more speed. " "The introduction of plastic balls to table tennis has definitely changed the game in massive ways." "Plastic balls as they are today are an advantage for players playing a fast attack game without much spin. These players are hitting the ball as soon as possible after the bounce, before the ball reaches the highest point of its trajectory. " "Another example of a player who has used this new material to their advantage is the new Japanese star Harimoto Tomokazu, who in the 2017 World Championships marched into the quarterfinals at only 14 years of age! He profited massively from the plastic ball using his fast strokes devoid of spin, hitting the ball immediately after the bounce on the table. " "But not everyone benefits from the new plastic balls and the changes they bring to gameplay. Defensive players playing backspin defense are even in more trouble than they've already been, ... "Overall, the changes brought to the game have been significant, and have caused players to alter their strategies and techniques to keep up. Table tennis has become faster, and rallies shorter. And with shorter stroke movements comes the need for adequate physical preparation to avoid injuries. " The author has a long list of credentials. I guess he probably knows this change of the table tennis balls more than most of us here. Anyone downplays the significance of this change should have some solid data/numbers to support his arguments. Edited by book4all - 08/04/2017 at 11:36pm |
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berndt_mann
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 10:33pm |
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(Baal) There are people out there still complaining that table tennis allowed inverted sponge rackets, so I imagine this argument too will never die.
Yep. Not as long as I am alive and even when a spirit in my one room efficiency apartment in Hard Rubber Heaven. Though my living quarters after I shuffle off this mortal coil will be kinda Spartan, at least I'll get to hang out with my heroes and heroines drinking cognac at the Mechlovits bar while watching today's pong on the bar's big screen vacuum tube TV. If you listen very closely you can hear the wtfs from Pesci to Reisman, even though they can't write to table tennis forums such as this because, well, they're spirits, although spirits not adverse to a shot or two of cognac, always on the house. I for one just want a stable period without constant rules changes. Well it's been about three years since polyballs were introduced. But who knows what's next. A higher net? A change to the service rules so that the pros in particular can understand them or strict enforcement of the present rules (wouldn't bet on that)? Stay tuned. We are still living in interesting times for tt.
Edited by berndt_mann - 08/04/2017 at 10:38pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 11:01pm |
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He clearly has a long history in TT, and I respect his opinion, but at the same time it would surprise me greatly if he has played with as many varieties of plastic balls or for as long a time (with the plastic balls) as I have. From the moment you could first buy 40+ balls, I switched, figuring that this was the way things were going to be whether I liked it or not (and I did not like it). Therefore I figured that I would try every single variety and report on their properties. I have also discussed them with professional players (and through them was able to play with prototype 40+ balls before they were sold commercially, including a seamless ball and a Nittaku SHA ball that is actually made by DHS). I don't normally make statements like that and it may seem strange for an amateur player in the US to challenge someone like this. But I have a forum posting history on the subject of 40+ balls to back it up here, at OOAK forum and TTD, starting on this subject form the time when it first became clear we would have to face this change. So in this case I am going to have the unmitigated nerve to challenge some of what he wrote. (Appeals to authority don't work well for me in any case). I should note that by contrast, a lot of people in Europe resisted the switch for as long as they could. A lot of club matches were still using celluloid long after people in my city had universally adopted 40+. Also, for a long time, European players did not use seamless balls or the Nittaku Premiums. You could see that trend on TT forums. I was in Dusseldorf this June at WTTC in the early tounds where you could ge closer. I think this guy is overstating things a bit, at least as to how Harimoto plays. I dont think he is entirely wrong but at some things he says are very questionable or simplistic. His contention that it is the hardness of the ball that reduces their spin is weird. There is no good reason to buy that. However, the new balls are bigger and heavier and that is quite sufficient to account for reduction in speed and spin. Not all the plastic balls sound strange. Of course, the G40+ is really weird. Nobody much cares about that. Another aspect that he completely ignores is that the balls used at this year's WTTC and the ATTC before it, where Miu Hirano and Harimoto had such success, are notable because it is was one of the first times we had top events with 40+ balls that bounce as high as celluloid balls. For most of the last three years ITTF Pro Tour events were played using a cellulose acetate 40+ ball with a markedly lower (and more erratic) bounce than celluloid had. However at Dusseldorf and at the Asian TTC matches were played with ABS balls. They play more like celluloid (largely owing to bounce), and there was debate about the effect that played. Remember, these pros have not been playing with celluloid for since 2014. So what matters now is which plastic ball they have been using. I am immediately suspicious of anybody who writes in broad generalities about "the" plastic ball because many things depend on WHICH plastic ball we are talking about. Clearly though, he is right that players have had to make some changes to these larger and heavier balls. I am not claiming that things are exactly the same as they were in celluloid era. Obviously they are not. We see a lot of players using faster blades (Ding Ning with a Carbonado, for example). In fact the reason I started playing with 40+ balls as soon as I could was because I knew it would be different and would require adjustments. I have not seen any solid data to indicate that rallies are shorter. They might be but again, this is one of those things that actually requires data. If so, though, I would suggest it might be because of points won on return of serve, which is something new. Serves are less effective, that is for sure. It is one of the biggest changes of all. Hariomoto does like to counter punch. But he also wins a lot of points off of his serve, and he is perfectly capable of spinning incredibly heavily from close in, and those balls he takes off the bounce are certainly not flat. But right now, he cannot afford to get into counterloop rallies with bigger stronger players. In a couple of years? Maybe different. But his style had been seen earlier in Japan, for example Kenta Matsudaira. It is notable that Matsudaira has not thrived particularly in the plastic ball era. Again, one of the pieces of conventional wisdom is that 40+ balls require more strength and conditioning and because of that, there is also some increase in injuries. By contrast, Miu Hirano was looping her CNT opponents off the table at ATTC! All the conversation was that she was making the Chinese women counterpunchers obsolete. A premature conclusion. They had some time to study her after that. And they know her weaknesses. And it may be quite awhile before she beats a CNT player again! And at the moment, Ma Long is still the best player in the world.
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berndt_mann
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Posted: 08/04/2017 at 11:10pm |
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Here are the author's credentials, taken from the blog which benfb cited:
Radivoj Hudetz is a 70-year veteran of table tennis and the Chairman of the ETTHoF board. He's the coach of Bayern, the German junior team, the Yugoslavian national women team, and the Yugoslavian champion women team HASTK Mladost Zagreb. He's an author of several books on table tennis techniques, tactics and history. He's also the chief editor of table tennis periodicals “Tischtennis aktuell” and “SPIN”, and an author of several films and DVD’s on table tennis. He's also the former president of Yugoslav Table Tennis Association and the former General secretary of Croatian TT Association. He was the tournament director of World Championships 2007. Currently he's a honorary member of ETTU and a member of ITTF President Advisory Council. He's been honored with ITTF award of merit, with the Croatian Table Tennis Association’s Trophy and with the Sport Award of Croatian Republic. Mr. Hudetz does seem to have pretty impressive credentials. His opinions on the effect of the introduction of larger, and in his opinion less spinny. balls should not be taken lightly. As one who learned defensive table tennis in a now virtually extinct classical manner with hopelessly outdated short pips without sponge, I agree with both Mr. Hudetz and book4all that defensive play has been badly imperiled by the larger ball. It was in pretty bad shape even during the introduction of sponge rubber, the usage of speed glues and now boosters, and the multiplicity of fast rubbers which enable even a talented 13-year old to reach the quarterfinals of a World Championship. Table tennis is not likely to see a Joo Se Hyuk redux competing for a World Championship any time soon, and if the sport continues to go in the direction it has been going. ever again. Edited by berndt_mann - 08/04/2017 at 11:19pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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benfb
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Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Posted: 08/05/2017 at 12:50am |
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With any significant change in the playing environment (rules or equipment), some players will be benefit greatly, others will be hurt greatly, and still others will have relatively minor impact. This is true at all levels, even the highest. To say otherwise is to ignore that players develop personal styles, which in part exploit particular features of the spot as they learned it. If you change the sport in a way that impact how they exploit the sport, it will affect their success. The best hard bat world champion might not have achieve that level with sponge play, the best speed glue/38 mm player might not have achieve that play with the current equipment, and the best players now might not have done so well in those earlier versions of table tennis. So maybe Ma Long was one of those not much impacted by the change to plastic. Or maybe he would have been an even greater champion if the world had stayed with celluloid. It's hard to judge in his particular case. In the case of Harimoto, his playing style seems specifically designed for the plastic ball and it's not hard to imagine that he would not have done as well in a celluloid world. You can also look at the rankings and see players who have benefited of not from plastic. Before plastic, Ovtcharov looked like the best chance to beat the Chinese, now he only wins when they're not playing. Before plastic, Samsonov looked destined for retirement, but plastic greatly extended his career. The fact that professionals have highly honed games makes them particularly vulnerable to changes. If you have the best hidden serves in the world and then hidden serves are made illegal, how does that impact your game? If you are great at fishing, which really benefited from speed glue, and speed glue is suddenly gone, how does that affect your game? Yes, a pro *might* learn to adjust his game, if it's not too badly hurt by the changes and if he's not too old, and if he's good at adjusting (which most people are not). Only a really young player, like Harimoto, will really adapt to a new playing environment and be completely at home with it. If you're one of those people who aren't affected much by the change to plastic, that's great for you. But don't assume that just because it wasn't a problem for you that it wasn't a problem for everyone else.
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