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Difference between zlc and Szlc

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PringlesRingles View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/18/2017 at 9:52am
What is the difference between these two blades for the mizutani version? Cool
More specifically in the feel of the two blades.
Is it a big difference using t80 instead of t05 for the two blades?


Edited by PringlesRingles - 08/18/2017 at 9:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote photino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 10:41am
price, and a little bit color and design on the handleTongue
regarding feeling, yes, one feels more expensive than the other
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 2:41pm
1k weave vs 3k weave. Most composites are a 3k weave. Materials are the same but a 1k weave is slightly more expensive. Butterfly spent $10 per blade extra and charged the customer $200 more lol great marketing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 2:42pm
the most noticeable difference between ZLC and SZLC is that there's no "S" in ZLC.... Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

1k weave vs 3k weave. Most composites are a 3k weave. Materials are the same but a 1k weave is slightly more expensive. Butterfly spent $10 per blade extra and charged the customer $200 more lol great marketing.

We need to make our own blades!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 2:59pm
no, you have to stop buying butterfly, or other brands that are extra greedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 3:38pm
Zylon (IUPAC name: poly(p-phenylene-2,6-benzobisoxazole)) is a trademarked name for a range of thermoset liquid-crystalline polyoxazole. This synthetic polymer material was invented and developed by SRI International in the 1980s and is manufactured by the Toyobo Corporation:

Availability has a impact on price. Zylon carbon weave is used in a variety of high tech military application and as such is tightly controlled. Toyobo Corporation will not sell Zylon to China for instance. Toyobo Corp creates the weave for Butterfly and doesn't sell that weave to any other Table Tennis manufacture. One can buy Zylon but finding a source for weaving at a affordable price point is another issue. While it has many application in domestic sports equipment Toyobo has dominate this space for many years and most likely sells specific weaves for each application. I tried for a friend to acquire this weave for Table Tennis who lived outside of the United States and finally gave up due to security restrictions and the lack of technical knowledge whether the weave we wanted would be worth the trouble as we had no way of testing until we went through the process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Zylon (IUPAC name: poly(p-phenylene-2,6-benzobisoxazole)) is a trademarked name for a range of thermoset liquid-crystalline polyoxazole. This synthetic polymer material was invented and developed by SRI International in the 1980s and is manufactured by the Toyobo Corporation:

Availability has a impact on price. Zylon carbon weave is used in a variety of high tech military application and as such is tightly controlled. Toyobo Corporation will not sell Zylon to China for instance. Toyobo Corp creates the weave for Butterfly and doesn't sell that weave to any other Table Tennis manufacture. One can buy Zylon but finding a source for weaving at a affordable price point is another issue. While it has many application in domestic sports equipment Toyobo has dominate this space for many years and most likely sells specific weaves for each application. I tried for a friend to acquire this weave for Table Tennis who lived outside of the United States and finally gave up due to security restrictions and the lack of technical knowledge whether the weave we wanted would be worth the trouble as we had no way of testing until we went through the process.

Does all of this make ANY discernible difference to a blade playing characteristics? Because it sure sounds like the next logical step here is locating another super-secret and rare 'Expensilon' fiber/weave/material, putting it into blade and charging extra 100$. Someone probably will buy it...  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 4:01pm
I actually built a few blades with a couple different types of ZLC(I even made a defensive ZLC blade). There wasn't a very big difference between any of the weaves. Just to put it into perspective 3k ZLC cost me about $10 extra in material compared to all wood. A yard of 3k ZLC 2x2 twill is around $75 and you can get 10-12 blades out of that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 4:08pm
Good question, given the widespread application for this material my guess would be yes it could make a difference but its military application has limited its non military availability and therefore impacts its price point. Also any company such as Toyobo wants its ROI for the R&D time and materials. . my two cents

Edited by lineup32 - 08/18/2017 at 4:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 4:10pm
Was any of the ZLC weavers from Toyobo corp?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 4:32pm
Price is different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 4:43pm
During my research I found a weaver here in the U.S. who was marketing a Zylon-carbon weave for the automative market and one could buy sample sheets. The issue was that you could not export those sheets and after discussing the issue with the Commerce dept export control group in San Jose they recommended that if we did manufacture table tennis blades with these sample sheets and wanted to export the blades it would be in our best interest to get a export license. Three M during this period had been fined heavily by the Commerce Dept for exporting controlled carbon weaves to Taiwan so everybody associated with this kind of product was on edge in the states.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2017 at 5:58pm
You could get in trouble exporting raw materials on the control list. For instance if our military used that type of carbon and you were the sole supplier. Manufactured table tennis blades would not fit into this category. Back to the OP I would not waste the money on Super ZlC. T05 vs T80 will depend on you and which throw angle you prefer.

Edited by jpenmaster - 08/18/2017 at 6:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2017 at 12:51am
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

1k weave vs 3k weave. Most composites are a 3k weave. Materials are the same but a 1k weave is slightly more expensive. Butterfly spent $10 per blade extra and charged the customer $200 more lol great marketing.

It's more than marketing. Have you any idea just how expensive those fiber cutting shears cost? The two recommended by Toyobo cost over $230 and $570 each.

On the Toyobo official site, Butterfly said they had trouble cutting the ZL fiber. This story is in line with what I read before. A netizen in China who is "in-the-loop" consulted Butterfly China on why these blades cost so much and he was told this much. They have to replace the blades every ten runs or so.

Folks in China notice and wonder the various ZLC clones aren't as cleanly cut as Butterfly. There you have it.

P.S.

Dugged up the thread.

Summary:

ZL fiber must be frozen before processing.

Shears used are imported from Germany.

Must be replaced after cutting a few tens.

Said to cost $900 bucks a piece.

And then there is the end mill for cutting the plywood into shape, which was not talked about. They cost like gold.

Edited by zeio - 08/19/2017 at 4:22am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2017 at 8:00am
Well that's crazy cause I cut it with a razor blade in about 10 seconds . I route out the shape with a Dremel and sand the edge with 220 grit sandpaper and my edge looks like Butterflys. If you get fraying with any composite just put a light coat of poly sealant on the edge and sand once dry. I do that with the DHS blades since they have that issue. Takes me about minute worth of work not including drying time. Here is a zlc tow carbon blade I made there is no fraying or fancy cutters used



Edited by jpenmaster - 08/19/2017 at 8:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2017 at 3:52pm
So you used Textreme, which is much easier to work with as they come with an epoxy binder that holds the fabric together.

Try the one that Butterfly uses. Many people "bitch" about how hard it is to cut and sand without fraying. Kevlar shears don't scratch it. Utility knife can cut it but goes bad after one cut.

http://clearstreamwood.com/WordPress/projects/200801-azure-njord-nh/azure-njord-laminating-the-inside-with-zylon-and-s-glass

http://www.talkcomposites.com/15223/Golden-Kevlar?PageIndex=1

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14127768&postcount=20

Edited by zeio - 08/19/2017 at 3:59pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2017 at 6:08pm
I use Textreme and 3k 2x2 twill which is the same as the regular zlc. Cut the same to me. I just use a straight edge and a razor blade. Press down on the straight edge and use firm pressure on the razor blade.

Edited by jpenmaster - 08/19/2017 at 6:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2017 at 6:28pm
I don't doubt that the Zylon fiber used is the same, but the weave is totally different. One is a fabric and the other one is like a tape.

For fabric, the strands would slide away as you cut through it with shears, not the case for Textreme.

One user claims Textreme can be cut with a pair of scissors for regular paper.

In the link to the discussion, Chinese blade manufacturer Sword is said to use similar cutting tool from Germany for processing the Jylon fiber.

P.S.

After checking out the fiber sheets on Butterfly site, the ZLF/ZLC/Super ZLC used are all plain weave(checkerboard), as opposed to 2x2 twill(zigzag).

Super ZLC


ZLC


ZLF


Edited by zeio - 08/20/2017 at 4:12am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2017 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Zylon (IUPAC name: poly(p-phenylene-2,6-benzobisoxazole)) is a trademarked name for a range of thermoset liquid-crystalline polyoxazole. This synthetic polymer material was invented and developed by SRI International in the 1980s and is manufactured by the Toyobo Corporation:

Availability has a impact on price. Zylon carbon weave is used in a variety of high tech military application and as such is tightly controlled. Toyobo Corporation will not sell Zylon to China for instance. Toyobo Corp creates the weave for Butterfly and doesn't sell that weave to any other Table Tennis manufacture. One can buy Zylon but finding a source for weaving at a affordable price point is another issue. While it has many application in domestic sports equipment Toyobo has dominate this space for many years and most likely sells specific weaves for each application. I tried for a friend to acquire this weave for Table Tennis who lived outside of the United States and finally gave up due to security restrictions and the lack of technical knowledge whether the weave we wanted would be worth the trouble as we had no way of testing until we went through the process.


Does all of this make ANY discernible difference to a blade playing characteristics? Because it sure sounds like the next logical step here is locating another super-secret and rare 'Expensilon' fiber/weave/material, putting it into blade and charging extra 100$. Someone probably will buy it...  



Would that be a national or provincial version of Expensilon?
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