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Is there a device to fix my wrist & elbow ?

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    Posted: 09/11/2017 at 12:15pm
After more than 2 years playing table tennis without any coaching, just whacking balls around with friends, I decided to start learning the right techniques from scratch from youtube videos .

 Now, to my utter dismay,  I discover I have developed nasty habits :  turning the wrist upward when I hit the ball . The modern  conventional technique appears to require that the angle of the bat  as well as the arm must be held more or less  fixed . The player has to move in such a way to be able to execute this same stroke over and over again .  It sounds so simple , yet I am having such a hard time  getting  rid of my old bad habits .

Is there any commercial device available  to keep your wrist & elbow fixed during practice ? Or I have to invent one ?  LOLLOLLOL

Please inform . Thanks .


Edited by mike1250 - 09/11/2017 at 12:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 12:44pm
the device you are thinking of is called "coach". It's a carbon based entity which has acquired very technical knowledge through many years and can teach it for a fee.

this device is found on table tennis clubs usually.

I have tried 3 of them and I can definitely recommend using this device.

FdT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote henningf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 12:44pm
I did the same, sorry to say this. But you might have to train it off. Forhand to forehand drive, slow just to get the tecnique right.
Nittaku Violin, Nittaku H3 pro, Butterfly Rozena
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 1:29pm
[QUOTE=Fulanodetal]
[Quote=henningf ]

I can't afford a coach & there is no ping-pong club in my area !CryCry 

Thanks for the rec.


Edited by mike1250 - 09/11/2017 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 1:33pm
where are you? who do you play with if there's no clubs?
are you playing at somebody's garage?

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 1:34pm
It is a very common problem with self-taught adult players just starting to get serious.  Unfortunately, it can also be hard to fix because people get the habit very ingrained.  It is hard to do much without seeing you in person, and with no coach in your area, you have some limits.

But here are four  things I think you could try by yourself.

1.  Check the thing Ariel Hsing uses at 1:46 in this video, which she calls her "forehand fixing machine".  (She is a former US Olympian). You can't buy this thing, you would have to make it, but it is easy enough with stuff you can find at a fabric store.  It will force you to relax your wrist and rotate your body.   http://vimeo.com/51161820

2. Make sure also to not let your right leg to get too far forward, and keep your weight down throughout the stroke.  If your wrist if flying it is partly because your weight transfer is also too much upward, and not enough around the axis of your body.

3.  Use your left hand to point at the ball as it is coming to you before you hit your forehand (I assume you are right handed).  This is just to try to help break the habit and for some reason it helps stop it.  It forces you to rotate your body more, which tends to keep the wrist from flying up.  It is not something to do in free play (points, or matches).  it is a tool to help restructure your stroke.

4. Get a golf putter and try to swing it with your right hand, as if you were hitting a topspin table tennis drive, finishing in something kind of like a "saluting" position.  Get a real sense of what that feels like.

The reason your stroke is bad is because it indicates everything is coming from your arm, like one of the Supremes singing Stop in the Name of Love. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 3:55pm
Samson Dubina sells a product that might work for you called the TT Flex.

http://www.samsondubina.com/products

looks like you could make your own with an old paddle and elastic band for not much money


Golf has had this product around for decades to prevent the flying elbow, it does the same as what Ariel is using:

https://www.tgw.com/callaway-connect-easy-swing-trainer?SITE_ID=A2004&CID=PLA&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInb7r0_Od1gIVG7nACh3IswclEAQYAiABEgI2CPD_BwE

Edited by qpskfec - 09/11/2017 at 3:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 5:27pm
Im not sure you want to spend your money on these contraptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBoSaAbkfBU

there are a bunch of them and without trying them personally it is hard to know if they are as effective as advertised.

Buy at your own risk!!

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

where are you? who do you play with if there's no clubs?
are you playing at somebody's garage?

FdT


As I have mentioned , I play with 5 other friends ; Two of them have ping-pong tables in their basements. I constructed myself a table in my backyard ( i.e. playable from May - November each year). No ping-pong club within 100 km radius of my house !CryCry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 6:37pm
[QUOTE=Baal]

Great tips !  Thanks Baal for your compassion for a novice in trouble ..ClapClapLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

Im not sure you want to spend your money on these contraptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBoSaAbkfBU



Very interesting device , indeed .  This is the kind of device I wish to try-out . 

My need is quite specific , though : a device for beginners to fix the wrist rotation problem. As Baal rightly  commented : my issue is ingrained and it takes time and effort to retrain my automatic reaction to hit the ball correctly .

I just want to make sure  I am not trying to invent the wheel  again !!LOLLOLLOL
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[QUOTE=qpskfec]

Thanks for the video links . They are the types of technical aids I want to see  !  ClapClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 7:57pm
You have to retrain your stroke using multiball at much slower than game speed. So easy it feels ridiculous. At that speed you can control your swing so it is correct the way you want it to be. Do that 10,000 times (i.e. get a bucket of 50 balls and someone to feed them to you 200 times, takes a few hours) Then very slowly ramp up the speed until you get to game speed, whatever that is for you. You may have hit 50,000+ practice balls to get your fh hit right at game speed.

There is no alternative. If you try to cut corners you will soon revert back to old bad habits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

........There is no alternative. If you try to cut corners you will soon revert back to old bad habits.


Thanks for the practical  advice . I know forming new muscle habits  will be tough for a while ... I am also thinking of some device to shorten this rehabitation period.EmbarrassedEmbarrassed


Edited by mike1250 - 09/11/2017 at 8:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2017 at 10:09pm
Be aware that of all the technical problems players have, in my experience this is one of the hardest to fix.  Another thing that helps is to video yourself so you can see what you are doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2017 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

..... Another thing that helps is to video yourself so you can see what you are doing.


Another great suggestion ! I have never thought of this one ....Angry       Thanks , Baal .


Edited by mike1250 - 09/12/2017 at 9:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2017 at 9:50am
When I started training with my first coach, I had the habit of using too much wrist. I had considered using a wrist brace which would limit mobility on the wrist. The ones they sell at local drugstores.

without a coach I think this may be an option. Those are not very expensive.

https://www.amazon.ca/Airflow-Wrist-Thumb-Support-wrists-Unisex/dp/B00DQR61VG/ref=pd_sbs_121_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=S8HTHG7C9MWNHDQAYMCY

FdT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2017 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:


...without a coach I think this may be an option. Those are not very expensive.


Yes...This wristbracing  working  in tandem with an elbow restraint would be perfect .  I tried this type of wrist bracing before but the wrist still rotatates due to the elbow joint movement . Thanks .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2017 at 12:30pm
If you want a wrist support that is stiffer, Google "Bowling wrist support" to see many options
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2017 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

If you want a wrist support that is stiffer, Google "Bowling wrist support" to see many options


You are absolutely right ! I googled  "bowling wrist brace + images "  and found so many different types.  They really stoke up my wild imagination   Big smile  .  I just wonder if there are   some elbow braces used in other sports ?  I am dreaming  of a combined brace for both wrist & elbow specifically designed for table tennis .    Thanks , qpskfec. ClapClap


Edited by mike1250 - 09/12/2017 at 6:39pm
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So far from all the comments , tips and advices from members of this forum in response to this thread, I come to the conclusion that apparently, there is no training device in the market  ( i.e. arm brace ) to keep the wrist and elbow in a correct stationary position during forehand drive practice in table tennis . It's a bit of a surprise to see such similar  device has been already available   for bowling ( i.e. wrist brace ) but not for table tennis !  A device of this type will be invaluable for self-training table tennis players (i.e. no coach available). 

I am thinking of a primitive arm brace which can be homemade  at a low cost (say less than 20.$ US )  and requires only a   low level of skills to produce . The main design objective of this arm brace is to immobize both the wrist and elbow during a forehand swing .

As I am in the feasibity phase of the design, any members interested in the such an arm brace are most welcome to contribute their ideas, knowledge and advices  in this thread. Thanks .




Edited by mike1250 - 09/13/2017 at 10:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:48pm
I am not sure what you mean by stationary. Your wrist shouldn't be flopping around in all sorts of directions, but it has to be able to move on a lot of shots in a controlled and well timed way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I am not sure what you mean by stationary. Your wrist shouldn't be flopping around in all sorts of directions, but it has to be able to move on a lot of shots in a controlled and well timed way.


What I meant "stationary" wrist position   is just to keep the bat angle constant ( say,  at 60 degree or 45 degrees with the horizontal) . This is one of the basic direction from coaches I saw in numerous training videos for beginners.  When  a player becomes efficient in controlling the ball,  the coach will then allow him to flex  the wrist  .

I envision the arm forms an L shape  having an angle   of a bout 120 degrees at the elbow   During forehand drive, the player will hit the ball by swinging the L shape arm around the shoulder joint in the same movement . He has to moves about and position himself in such a way to be able to execute this same swing . He also needs to keep the elbow not too far away from the body ( i.e. imagining keeping  an orange tucked in his armpit from dropping during play ) . 

This is the stage I am at in my self-traing effort .   LOLLOL


Edited by mike1250 - 09/13/2017 at 11:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuLimei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:43pm
Yes. Here it is: 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Yes. Here it is: 




No picture ??   Please reload the Pic . Apparently, there was a 404 error !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuLimei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 12:11am
Originally posted by mike1250 mike1250 wrote:


No picture ??   Please reload the Pic . Apparently, there was a 404 error !!
It was a regular dumbbell. Do some Trice-Extensions for your elbow and some wrist curls for your wrist and you should be fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 12:25am
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

It was a regular dumbbell. Do some Trice-Extensions for your elbow and some wrist curls for your wrist and you should be fine.



Apparently You did not follow this thread properly ...Wake up   Hulimei    LOLLOLClapClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 10:30am
Originally posted by mike1250 mike1250 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I am not sure what you mean by stationary. Your wrist shouldn't be flopping around in all sorts of directions, but it has to be able to move on a lot of shots in a controlled and well timed way.


What I meant "stationary" wrist position   is just to keep the bat angle constant ( say,  at 60 degree or 45 degrees with the horizontal) . This is one of the basic direction from coaches I saw in numerous training videos for beginners.  When  a player becomes efficient in controlling the ball,  the coach will then allow him to flex  the wrist  .

I envision the arm forms an L shape  having an angle   of a bout 120 degrees at the elbow   During forehand drive, the player will hit the ball by swinging the L shape arm around the shoulder joint in the same movement . He has to moves about and position himself in such a way to be able to execute this same swing . He also needs to keep the elbow not too far away from the body ( i.e. imagining keeping  an orange tucked in his armpit from dropping during play ) . 

This is the stage I am at in my self-traing effort .   LOLLOL


You will turn yourself into a statue.  Just relax and try some of the other suggestions first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 11:28am
" The main design objective of this arm brace is to immobize both the wrist and elbow during a forehand swing . "

Normally during a fh loop you do have to flex the elbow. First you relax it in the preparation stage, then you quickly flex during ball contact then you relax again during the follow through. It should not be stiff, frozen in an "L" shape during the swing.

FdT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike1250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

..........
Normally during a fh loop you do have to flex the elbow. First you relax it in the preparation stage, then you quickly flex during ball contact then you relax again during the follow through. It should not be stiff, frozen in an "L" shape during the swing.



The device I have in mind should be lockable at the elbow .  First , lock the elbow joint  and pay attention to the wrist only . As you already knew, I tried to fix my wrist issue ( i.e. it turns upwards when I hit the ball ) .  From personal experience, if  I allow free elbow joint movement then the wrist still rotatates even though it is already locked. This happens due to the rotation of the forearm which , in turn, is a result of the elbow movement  ! .

 Later on, I can unlock the elbow joint and play the way  you just mentioned.
I believe in the effectiveness of  a sequential rehabitliation  of flaws in table tennis techniques . We deal with one issue at a time , solve it then move to the next  .

 Thanks for your always-constructive comments . ClapClap
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