What is the deal with blades really?

ZLF is definitely the oddball here. Most reviews that I've come across tend to rate it as really picky on rubbers.

Hi  Lightzy the forum members on here are the one's who tend to be equipment junkies, enthusiast's, medium level players and want to learn from forums and share their own life experiences

zeio wrote: ZLF is definitely the oddball here. Most reviews that I've come across tend to rate it as really picky on rubbers.

I confirm that.
I also think the ZLF harmonizes unpredictably with rubbers, from what experience I have with this blade (about a year)

Fulanodetal wrote: "Those are not credible sources. Kineske-gume? Really? You are just cherry picking stuff that suits your purpose." Those come come Butterfly itself. BUTTERFLY!! The guys that make Viscaria. So stick that down your pipe and smoke it!! And they were on their Butterfly catalog as well, for the North American market. FdT

Oh really? Then why did you not post a link from the official butterfly website?
Right... because it's not on their website, as they know it's bullshit.
I have objectively proven that the graph makes literally no sense, you have ignored that,
yet you continue to scream around with double exclamation marks. So, likewise, I will ignore you now.

Hozuki wrote: Fulanodetal wrote: "Those are not credible sources. Kineske-gume? Really? You are just cherry picking stuff that suits your purpose." Those come come Butterfly itself. BUTTERFLY!! The guys that make Viscaria. So stick that down your pipe and smoke it!! And they were on their Butterfly catalog as well, for the North American market. FdT Oh really? Then why did you not post a link from the official butterfly website? Right... because it's not on their website, as they know it's bullshit. I have objectively proven that the graph makes literally no sense, you have ignored that, yet you continue to scream around with double exclamation marks. So, likewise, I will ignore you now.

Actually, in defense of FdT, that graph was on the Butterfly website for years.  I can't find it there any longer, maybe because somebody there finally realized it was pretty useless (not to mention that about 2/3 of the blades on it have been discontinued for years).  They never mentioned how they come up with the ratings.  Maybe it was the same guy who thought Viscaria would improve "perfomance" [sic].    Anyway if you guys have finished tearing into each other, now we can move on.

The next flame war, when the OP tries his experiment and tells us that a 5$ blade will be just ideal with a good rubber will begin in 3, 2, 1....

It doesn't matter that you think it's bullshit. 

If you guys have finished tearing into each other, now we can move on.  (2)

Interesting take on their new chart.  I'll have to think about that for a bit.

The new chart actually makes sense to me.

BUT, after decades of experience there is one thing I know for sure: 

The only way to know for sure if you will like a setup is to play with it (or something very much like it*).  Anything else risks wasting money.  There is no chart and no comment on the internet that can get you past this reality.  If you go by what you read here or elsewhere, you might get lucky or you might not.  If you are talking about the cost of a box of 10 balls, maybe no big deal.  If you are talking about a $400 blade?  Definitely a big deal.

*  Playing with a Timo Boll Spirit with Donic Bluefire M1 might help you decide whether you might like a Viscaria with Tibhar Evolution MX-P if you are used to playing with, say, a Stiga Clipper or some other blade that is quite different in construction.

That is a good point too.  You need some experience with several blades on the chart to make some sense of it for blades you haven't tried.

"The only way to know for sure if you will like a setup is to play with it (or something very much like it*).  Anything else risks wasting money.  There is no chart and no comment on the internet that can get you past this reality. "

 I gotta side with slevin.

slevin wrote: zeio wrote: The new chart is not mere marketing talk. The numbers are based on tests done on a testbed. Butterfly has published numerous articles on it in Takurepo. Yes, but the latest chart (see Shakehand Blade Matrix in that link to the left) does not give us appropriate picture. Most common stroke on FH (or at-least, most relevant while looking at speed parameters): loop or loop-drive Assuming reaction property ~ some bounce height test, it is not appropriate in all cases (but more important: in common ones) suspect bounce test (reaction property): ZJK-ZLC or TB-ZLC show less reaction property than Viscaria (et al) bounce test as expected but does not tell true story (especially with Chinese tacky rubbers): Viscaria (et al) reaction property much higher than that of IF-Layer ZLC. I have given two 2600 player / coaches my Viscaria & IF-Layer ZLC with same rubbers (H3 Neo / T05) on both. Both concluded that the IF-Layer ZLC (85g) was harder and faster than the Viscaria (88g). I agree that Viscaria bounce test should show higher reaction property number. Same for blades with many blades with hinoki outers - they generally show higher reaction property numbers than what you can feel on power loops. So, the acute outliers (real performance vs perceived from graph for say, the power loop FH stroke) are flexy hard blades (eg: IF-Layer ZLC) on one end and stiff soft blades (eg: Garaydia series) on the other. Flexy soft composite blades (eg: TB-ZLF) are not too badly represented on the graph

I'm not surprised, after reading numerous scientific studies that present contradicting results on similar setups when tested under different conditions.

Well, my experience is that dollar store setups (extremly cheap rackets $1 - $5) doesn’t work really well with good rubbers.

The main difference between a «cheap» blade ($10-$30) and an expensive ($100-$200) is build quality and sometimes more expensive materials.

I’ve broken 2 cheap blades, but not one of my more expensive ones. That said, I play with (what I consider) a hard blade. OSP V+ (it’s about the same hardness as BTY Korbel more or less) I like a hard rubber in FH (H3) and medium to soft in BH (Xiom musa).

I’ve tried several combinatons of blade and rubber and what I learned is that it doesn’t matter that much, consistancy was more important. (Atleast at my level)

I’ve seen some chinese coatches that says: soft springy blades, hard rubbers. But it comes down to skill and technique, which is something that usually comes with training in my book.

Hozuki wrote: bard romance wrote: I can assure you there are countless high level players who use such rackets and have no problems with "no spin".  It's called user error.  Lol, what's your point? Countless high level players use tenergy. You think that's a soft rubber? You haven't even specified what you think is "such" a pro racket. And yes, some players, even high level might be using soft rubber because for example their backhand is underdeveloped so they just play passively. Doesn't take anything away from the fact that really soft rubber (<40 deg) + hard blade is not optimal for an offensive minded player with good technique.

coach of a top 40 ittf player also said hard rubber flexy blade