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illegal serves removal free arm??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 11:28am
2.06.05 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. 
The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension.

Actually, I do not read too much into the second part of this clause. For me, it is mentioned to define the motion where the ball is projected upwards ....and that there is no limit as to how high the server may project up the ball; height of roof or lightings permitting.
Granted, if the ball is above the arm, the arm is not in the space between the ball and the net and that the rule is specific about the space above the ball, and yet says nothing about the space below the ball but what does this have to do with removing the free hand from that ' space '......the rule states that the free arm and hand are to be removed from that ' space ' as soon as the ball has thrown upwards ( so that the receiver will have a complete unimpeded view of the ball from the time the ball was thrown up until when it was struck ).
If we were to read this clause together with the other clauses in 2.6, we would understand that these service rules are meant to allow the receiver to have a completely clear and unimpeded view of the ball during the serve.
These clauses define such instances where the vision of the receiver may be obstructed or that the server may gain undue advantage through a sleight of hand; imparting spin or cupping  and are therefore disallowed. 
Dangling of hands arms and removing at the last minute or second is a no no. You are to remove them as soon as the ball has been projected.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 2:31pm
You are not allowed to "not read too much into" what they write. 

Other wise I could just not read too much into the first part. 

If the words are there, they are there for a reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S c o t t 6 3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 3:12pm
I believe, " its indefinite upward extension" refers to the net not the ball.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 3:26pm
Scott is right actually, now that I read a b bit more closely.

The point remains, though, that if the ball is above the free arm, the free arm is not obstructing the view since it is not in the space between the ball and the net.

And that is why it is not called IMHO.  We all seem to agree that it is not being called

Where we differ is in how we react to that fact, and our explanations for it.  I would again argue that the way umpires are ruling at the most important events in the sport tells us something about what ITTF currently wants to happen. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:34pm
I don't see why you would have to reference the free arm moving at all if my interpretation is not what was intended with the rule
I think its just lax umpiring
even if it is not against the rules to kind of leave the arm in the general area until the last second
IMO it is pushing the boundaries of gamesmanship to the limit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I would again argue that the way umpires are ruling at the most important events in the sport tells us something about what ITTF currently wants to happen. 

The way ITTF wants it to happen is described in their training video.



I would say the reason why some umpires aren't calling illegal serves is partly because of the players belief that if the umpire doesn't call it, then it must be legal.  Maybe if players complained more, then the umpires would focus their attention more on illegal serves.

Lack of player complaints might also imply players not knowing the nuances that make a serve illegal.  Or maybe they don't care.  For instance, some people don't care if the ball is momentarily hidden by the server's head as long as they can see the ball at the point of contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 5:30pm
Fasci-friggin'-ating.  To paraphrase Bob Dylan:  How many serves must a receiver face, before an ump calls them illegal?  Is this a bloody great sport or what?

Gosharootie.  If I had learned all of the different ways you can serve illegally back in '61, I might have been a solid 2500 by '05.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 5:54pm
berndt_mann, I just new you would be a Dylan fan.

you have gone up even more in my estimations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I would again argue that the way umpires are ruling at the most important events in the sport tells us something about what ITTF currently wants to happen. 

The way ITTF wants it to happen is described in their training video.



I would say the reason why some umpires aren't calling illegal serves is partly because of the players belief that if the umpire doesn't call it, then it must be legal.  Maybe if players complained more, then the umpires would focus their attention more on illegal serves.

Lack of player complaints might also imply players not knowing the nuances that make a serve illegal.  Or maybe they don't care.  For instance, some people don't care if the ball is momentarily hidden by the server's head as long as they can see the ball at the point of contact.


The suggestion here is that amateur players know more of the nuances than people whose livelihoods depend on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by mog1111 mog1111 wrote:

I don't see why you would have to reference the free arm moving at all if my interpretation is not what was intended with the rule
I think its just lax umpiring
even if it is not against the rules to kind of leave the arm in the general area until the last second
IMO it is pushing the boundaries of gamesmanship to the limit


If I understand you correctly you are calling out the international umpires for being slackers, and also the top players whose livelihoods depend on this for not being sufficiently sporting in the face of what umpires are calling and not calling.

I personally would not do that, not even if I was a county umpire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:36pm
(Baal)  The suggestion here is that amateur players know more of the nuances than people whose livelihoods depend on it

I don't think so.  The suggestion here in the video made by the ITTF showing several kinds of illegal serves and the appropriate hand signals for each kind is that illegal serving does indeed exist in ITTF sanctioned tournaments.  This has nothing to do with either amateur players or nuances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:53pm
No argument there Berndt but I was not referring to the comment with the video in it, I was replying to Mog's last comment -- which was obvious because I included it in a box.   

The hand signals are also outlined in the Guide for Match Officials.  They updated them in the last year or two.  Of course some illegal serves do get called.  It is not like the ITTF has decided suddenly there is no such thing as illegal serving.  However, from threads here it is clear that some people think umpires should call them a lot more than they do.  Personally I am glad that they don't.  Mog went and asked an international umpire his opinion, which is fine, but I think the easiest way to ascertain how international umpires define an illegal serve is to look at what they call and don't call. 

One last thing.  I didn't make the current rule and  I don't like the current rule.  I am not one of the international players serving that way.  I am not one of the umpires calling or not calling it.  I am just a table tennis player and fan.  I don't boost my rubber and I don't care if my opponent does.  You seem hell-bent on blaming me for all of what you hate about table tennis.  I suggest you reconsider that (and not conflate that with my job here to see that rules about not trolling and derailing threads are followed).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 7:56pm
I have gotten into arguments about serves at each league game this season. 

At the beginning of the season I thought that I would politely say something when players serve straight out of their hand or hide the ball with their shoulder or drop their hand under the table whilst serving. However, 2 out of 3 times it has severely affected the atmosphere of the night and turned the ties into unpleasant affairs. From now on I will just keep my mouth shut and deal with whatever serve comes at me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

I have gotten into arguments about serves at each league game this season. 

At the beginning of the season I thought that I would politely say something when players serve straight out of their hand or hide the ball with their shoulder or drop their hand under the table whilst serving. However, 2 out of 3 times it has severely affected the atmosphere of the night and turned the ties into unpleasant affairs. From now on I will just keep my mouth shut and deal with whatever serve comes at me. 
Or learn how to do an effective illegal serve but only use it if your opponent uses it first and refuses to serve legally.  Tit for tat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

No argument there Berndt but I was not referring to the comment with the video in it, I was replying to Mog's last comment -- which was obvious because I included it in a box.   

The hand signals are also outlined in the Guide for Match Officials.  They updated them in the last year or two.  Of course some illegal serves do get called.  It is not like the ITTF has decided suddenly there is no such thing as illegal serving.  However, from threads here it is clear that some people think umpires should call them a lot more than they do.  Personally I am glad that they don't.  Mog went and asked an international umpire his opinion, which is fine, but I think the easiest way to ascertain how international umpires define an illegal serve is to look at what they call and don't call. 

One last thing.  I didn't make the current rule and  I don't like the current rule.  I am not one of the international players serving that way.  I am not one of the umpires calling or not calling it.  I am just a table tennis player and fan.  I don't boost my rubber and I don't care if my opponent does.  You seem hell-bent on blaming me for all of what you hate about table tennis.  I suggest you reconsider that (and not conflate that with my job here to see that rules about not trolling and derailing threads are followed).

This was Mog's last comment.  
Posted:  5 hours 6 minutes ago at 7:54pm
berndt_mann, I just new you would be a Dylan fan.

you have gone up even more in my estimations
[QUOTE]
I am well aware that you did not make the current service rules and that you don't like them.  
I also know that you are not an international player who isn't "serving that way".  Which way?
Legally?  Illegally?  

I even know that you are not to blame for everything I find distasteful, unbalanced, or equipment 
dependent about today's competitive table tennis.  That's why twenty years ago I decided to play a
more sensible, fairer, better balanced version of the sport that has existed since the founding ot the 
ITTF in 1926.

Finally, I am well aware of the threads I never, or at the very least hardly ever post to, nor derail,
nor hijack, on this forum, or on the defunct about.com forum, or the Remarq forum, or the rec.
sport.table-tennis forum.  With respect to this forum, I don't, or hardly ever, post to threads 
about:  
Newcomers to the forum who want to know if a change of blade or rubber or both might help
their game.
EJ threads.
Threads by reformed EJs.
Threads about the latest rubbers.
Threads about the latest rackets.
The thread about the cool Siberian girl.
Threads of degrees of hardness of sponge and their merits or demerits.
Threads about custom made blades.
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Threads about upcoming clinics by Stellan.
The thread about reporting the mass of your uncut rubber.
Threads about how to coach someone how to make a forehand or backhand loop or banana flip.
Threads about the deficiencies or good points of 40+ mm. balls.
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Threads about long pips virtuosi.
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get.
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A thread about deleting an entire thread (oh wait; I did have a few things to say about that).


    
 




Edited by berndt_mann - 10/10/2017 at 9:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:08pm
The funny thing is the way that ITTF umpires officiate the game is not necessarily the way the ITTF wants it to be officiated.  Look at the training video, for example.  I'm sure we all recognize many of those serves in actual pro tournaments not getting called ... (sometimes they do call them on it).  Not to pick on Dima, but when he does his crouching backhand serve, almost every time, you can see that the ball starts off at least partially below the top of the table, but I don't ever recall seeing him being faulted on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:21pm
'I believe, " its indefinite upward extension" refers to the net not the ball.  ' - Scott63

Well, if we are not to read too much into anything;ie the 'naunces', the above plainly refers to the space between the ball and the net; that space obviously is confined by the imaginary lines involving the upward extensions of the ball and the net ( and the roof ). Please correct me if you think I am wrong or that I have read too much into the sentence.LOL

The referred video states; clear enough to me, the parameters of a legal serve by showing what a player cannot do, and mind you, this video is either produced or accepted by the ITTF as an offical statement. Are we to say that any deviations from the requirements and instructions from what the video shows are in keeping with the rules ? And are not lax ( not strict ).
I am in agreement with mog1111; if umpires including those officiating international tournaments are not following the rules then they are lax. There are also comments about umpires not being uniform in their interpretations and enforcing of the rules. In my opinion, it is for the ITTF to take note and improve on their performance. Nothing insidious about this. It has nothing to do with being an aficionado, an amateur player or a low ranking official.

The unnecessary infatuation and the perceived problem with the space between the ball below the arm is implicitly and explicitly considered and handled as per the clauses in the service rules; including.... removing the arm and the hand ( so as to allow the receiver to have a complete and unobstructed view of the ball while in flight ).

These are the rules. Of course, it is another thing to say that we do not at all agree with this requirement; that maybe it negatively affect some players. For that, we will need to show some basis, evidence.



Edited by penholderxxx - 10/10/2017 at 1:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

I have gotten into arguments about serves at each league game this season. 

At the beginning of the season I thought that I would politely say something when players serve straight out of their hand or hide the ball with their shoulder or drop their hand under the table whilst serving. However, 2 out of 3 times it has severely affected the atmosphere of the night and turned the ties into unpleasant affairs. From now on I will just keep my mouth shut and deal with whatever serve comes at me. 


I know how you feel, but the cheats have created the bad atmosphere firstly with cheating or ignorance possibly.
Then they argue and create bad atmosphere instead of trying to serve properly. you should report them to your local league and/or governing body.
By keeping your mouth shut you are effectively giving in to bullying.

as a fellow simon I urge you to keep calling them out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 8:17am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

The funny thing is the way that ITTF umpires officiate the game is not necessarily the way the ITTF wants it to be officiated.  Look at the training video, for example.  I'm sure we all recognize many of those serves in actual pro tournaments not getting called ... (sometimes they do call them on it).  Not to pick on Dima, but when he does his crouching backhand serve, almost every time, you can see that the ball starts off at least partially below the top of the table, but I don't ever recall seeing him being faulted on it.

He was faulted exactly for that in a T2 league game recently and since then I've noticed he keeps it just above the table by the smallest possible margin.

Yoshida did exactly the same thing against Aruna in his final serve whilst losing the Polish Open final and I thought it very strange that the neither umpire noticed such an easily spottable fault. I get why other faulty serves are tricky to call but this one is clear-cut. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 8:26am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

I have gotten into arguments about serves at each league game this season. 

At the beginning of the season I thought that I would politely say something when players serve straight out of their hand or hide the ball with their shoulder or drop their hand under the table whilst serving. However, 2 out of 3 times it has severely affected the atmosphere of the night and turned the ties into unpleasant affairs. From now on I will just keep my mouth shut and deal with whatever serve comes at me. 
Or learn how to do an effective illegal serve but only use it if your opponent uses it first and refuses to serve legally.  Tit for tat.

I guess I could try to learn that high toss serve trick where you throw one ball really high and then serve a second ball straight out of my hand whilst your opponent is admiring the high toss.Big smile

Or this slapstick variation of it, which is a little more legal. Works especially well on dogs and children aged 6 to 9: 

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