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Which is the most 'honourable' brand?

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    Posted: 10/12/2017 at 1:19pm
In light of the thread about the perceived shady behaviour of Butterfly, which brand do you think should be supported? Factors worth considering include the owners of the brand, quality of the product, pricing strategies, value for money and what they give back to table tennis, especially at the grassroots level.

From my limited knowledge, out of the major companies I'd say that it'd have to be either Joola, Donic or Tibhar.

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I feel as if the brands that are most loyal are any brand other than Butterfly. Butterfly uses it's popularity from it's sponsored players to encourage people to buy their outrageous products. DHS is well known for having Ma Long but their Hurricanes are not skyrocketting at prices like tenergy. 
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I would say DHS.
Their blades, rubbers and balls are quite reasonably priced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 1:53pm
Ross Leidy and American Hinoki are the best ever; they will do anything to make you happy if they can. 

I have a bias for Nittaku and Xiom: 

-Nittaku for their conservative decisions that are safe; they move forward with very careful steps and they make me feel comfortable, I trust them.

-Xiom for their bold moves that make me want to EJ because they always come with new offerings and sometimes they make me think of those bicycle companies Lime, Spin and Ofo who have a smartphone app then they throw 500 bikes out there then just wait for the money LOL: you unlock the bike with your smartphone and pay $1 per hour; when you're done, you leave it wherever you want, in the street, unlike Velib in Paris where you must return it at one official spot to rack it in (more conservative approach). XIOM FTW!

Of course NEXY deserves a special mention and I see them between Nittaku and Xiom in terms of trust, novel ideas and evolution.

"Butterfly is not a technology company, it's a marketing company" said a player at the club; I agree.



Edited by fatt - 10/12/2017 at 1:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 1:57pm
The losers have to commit suicide?
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"-Xiom for their bold moves that make me want to EJ because they always come with new offerings and sometimes they make me think of those bicycle companies Lime, Spin and Ofo who have a smartphone app then they throw 500 bikes out there then just wait for the money LOL: you unlock the bike with your smartphone and pay $1 per hour; when you're done, you leave it wherever you want, in the street, unlike Velib in Paris where you must return it at one official spot to rack it in (more conservative approach)."

Leaving a rented bike wherever you want is causing many problems in China. Around popular places, bikes clog the sidewalks and cause real safety problems. This is an idea that sounds good at first, buts causes many unintended negatives when not thought out carefully.

https://qz.com/1058438/chinese-cities-saying-enough-already-to-chaos-generated-by-bike-sharing-services-like-ofo-and-mobike/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/02/world/asia/china-beijing-dockless-bike-share.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Which is the most 'honourable' brand?



This is definitely not the most popular answer (ya think?!) but I vote for... Butterfly.  They sponsor a lot of juniors here in the Maryland area and they give back a lot with the sponsored tournaments.  As for the blockage of distributors, if I was a distributor in the U.S. or Canada and people are buying somewhere else, I'd do something to protect my interests too.  As for Tenergy being expensive, and I agree that it is, you know exactly what you're paying for.  Not to pick on DHS and I don't want to get started on them but if Butterfly operated with different versions and a mystical "National version", Butterfly would get slammed but DHS seems to get away clean.  It seems that the heir apparent to Tenergy (for now) is the Evolution series.  Well, if the reviews are "this rubber performs just as well as Tenergy", don't expect Tenergy prices to go down Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The losers have to commit suicide?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

I would say DHS.
Their blades, rubbers and balls are quite reasonably priced.
 yes their prices are reducing, or not

Huge prices for their new type of blades and mythical hurricanes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

I would say DHS.
Their blades, rubbers and balls are quite reasonably priced.
Can't say that I would pick DHS when they have rubber reserved for the CNT and not available to the general consumer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrick1v Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 4:28pm
are you sure buterfly dont have different rubbers for sponsord players.i once saw some chinese provincial players that had a special red stamped sriver and bryce rubber they used for there back hand.also tried a sheet of bryce from a sponsord player back in the the day and what difference it was from the one bought in the store
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

I would say DHS.
Their blades, rubbers and balls are quite reasonably priced.

Can't say that I would pick DHS when they have rubber reserved for the CNT and not available to the general consumer.


Yeah what they supply to CNT is totally different from the Hurricanes on the market. I wonder which version they sent to ITTF for approval, because the other version is surely not approved   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jasonh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Ross Leidy and American Hinoki are the best ever; they will do anything to make you happy if they can. 


Fatt, is American Hinoki still making blades? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"-Xiom for their bold moves that make me want to EJ because they always come with new offerings and sometimes they make me think of those bicycle companies Lime, Spin and Ofo who have a smartphone app then they throw 500 bikes out there then just wait for the money LOL: you unlock the bike with your smartphone and pay $1 per hour; when you're done, you leave it wherever you want, in the street, unlike Velib in Paris where you must return it at one official spot to rack it in (more conservative approach)."

Leaving a rented bike wherever you want is causing many problems in China. Around popular places, bikes clog the sidewalks and cause real safety problems. This is an idea that sounds good at first, buts causes many unintended negatives when not thought out carefully.

https://qz.com/1058438/chinese-cities-saying-enough-already-to-chaos-generated-by-bike-sharing-services-like-ofo-and-mobike/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/02/world/asia/china-beijing-dockless-bike-share.html

I agree; I just admire the incredibly bold idea and what technology allows; I do not think it's viable. People underestimate the number of guys and gals who break things just to break things; they calculated what it would cost to bring back the bikes to places where they are used once they are almost all too far from where they are needed but the on purpose or involuntary breakage factor will kill the project unless the price of the bikes goes down enough to make it possible to get the money back and some; it's such a fine line. It's still new. And yes, the public disturbance you mention is another factor that won't help and that was maybe not enough taken into account.
Xiom is a bit like that: they try and try again new stuff but sometimes it's annoying because they kill nice products and keep on the marker stuff nobody cares about...They are still teenagers in terms of marketing and new releases: hormones kick in and they go for it 100% as fast as they get out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"-Xiom for their bold moves that make me want to EJ because they always come with new offerings and sometimes they make me think of those bicycle companies Lime, Spin and Ofo who have a smartphone app then they throw 500 bikes out there then just wait for the money LOL: you unlock the bike with your smartphone and pay $1 per hour; when you're done, you leave it wherever you want, in the street, unlike Velib in Paris where you must return it at one official spot to rack it in (more conservative approach)."

Leaving a rented bike wherever you want is causing many problems in China. Around popular places, bikes clog the sidewalks and cause real safety problems. This is an idea that sounds good at first, buts causes many unintended negatives when not thought out carefully.

https://qz.com/1058438/chinese-cities-saying-enough-already-to-chaos-generated-by-bike-sharing-services-like-ofo-and-mobike/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/02/world/asia/china-beijing-dockless-bike-share.html

I agree; I just admire the incredibly bold idea and what technology allows; I do not think it's viable. People underestimate the number of guys and gals who break things just to break things; they calculated what it would cost to bring back the bikes to places where they are used once they are almost all too far from where they are needed but the on purpose or involuntary breakage factor will kill the project unless the price of the bikes goes down enough to make it possible to get the money back and some; it's such a fine line. It's still new. And yes, the public disturbance you mention is another factor that won't help and that was maybe not enough taken into account.
Xiom is a bit like that: they try and try again new stuff but sometimes it's annoying because they kill nice products and keep on the marker stuff nobody cares about...They are still teenagers in terms of marketing and new releases: hormones kick in and they go for it 100% as fast as they get out.



I support innovation 100%. There has to be some common sense applied. For Xiom, if they make new products, which succeeds or fails, it really doesn't affect anyone else. Innovate away.

For bikeshare in China, it's not a fine line. If you are the mayor of Shanghai and someone tells you that bikeshare companies want to deploy 1.5 MILLION bikes in the city that people can rent and LEAVE ANYWHERE, common sense says this will create chaos. Paris thought about it more and decided they didn't want thousands of people trying to leave a bike in front of the Eiffel Tower.

This also reminds of an innovative product like the Segway. Segway backers said    the product would start a transportation revolution. Can you imagine trying to ride a Segway on the sidewalk in New York or Shanghai? People with common sense correctly predicted that governments would not allow Segways on sidewalks mixed with pedestrians.

Edited by qpskfec - 10/12/2017 at 8:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2017 at 10:03pm
One annoying thing about Xiom is their very rapid discontinuation or modification of blades.  Take the good with the bad.  The blades are good quality and good price.  I didn't always like the balance, but unlike another major company, they don't cell blades that delaminate.

I would like to put a pitch in for Soulspin with their innovative approach to handle design and customization which unfortunately has not caught on.

On the other hand I have no idea what "honorable" means in this context.  It is a bit like asking what companies make blades that are the most "magnificent" or the most "true to the sport" or the most "epic".
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Yasaka, for they...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2017 at 12:38am
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"-Xiom for their bold moves that make me want to EJ because they always come with new offerings and sometimes they make me think of those bicycle companies Lime, Spin and Ofo who have a smartphone app then they throw 500 bikes out there then just wait for the money LOL: you unlock the bike with your smartphone and pay $1 per hour; when you're done, you leave it wherever you want, in the street, unlike Velib in Paris where you must return it at one official spot to rack it in (more conservative approach)."

Leaving a rented bike wherever you want is causing many problems in China. Around popular places, bikes clog the sidewalks and cause real safety problems. This is an idea that sounds good at first, buts causes many unintended negatives when not thought out carefully.

https://qz.com/1058438/chinese-cities-saying-enough-already-to-chaos-generated-by-bike-sharing-services-like-ofo-and-mobike/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/02/world/asia/china-beijing-dockless-bike-share.html

I agree; I just admire the incredibly bold idea and what technology allows; I do not think it's viable. People underestimate the number of guys and gals who break things just to break things; they calculated what it would cost to bring back the bikes to places where they are used once they are almost all too far from where they are needed but the on purpose or involuntary breakage factor will kill the project unless the price of the bikes goes down enough to make it possible to get the money back and some; it's such a fine line. It's still new. And yes, the public disturbance you mention is another factor that won't help and that was maybe not enough taken into account.
Xiom is a bit like that: they try and try again new stuff but sometimes it's annoying because they kill nice products and keep on the marker stuff nobody cares about...They are still teenagers in terms of marketing and new releases: hormones kick in and they go for it 100% as fast as they get out.



I support innovation 100%. There has to be some common sense applied. For Xiom, if they make new products, which succeeds or fails, it really doesn't affect anyone else. Innovate away.

For bikeshare in China, it's not a fine line. If you are the mayor of Shanghai and someone tells you that bikeshare companies want to deploy 1.5 MILLION bikes in the city that people can rent and LEAVE ANYWHERE, common sense says this will create chaos. Paris thought about it more and decided they didn't want thousands of people trying to leave a bike in front of the Eiffel Tower.

This also reminds of an innovative product like the Segway. Segway backers said    the product would start a transportation revolution. Can you imagine trying to ride a Segway on the sidewalk in New York or Shanghai? People with common sense correctly predicted that governments would not allow Segways on sidewalks mixed with pedestrians.

You would be funny in your impeccable sense, fan of innovation and common wellbeing if the bike share topic was not as dramatic in Shanghai. I still think the fact such huge scale projects are even seeing the light is an honor to China; I want to précise I had no clue about the Chinese experience so thanks for educating me.
From chaos sense emerges and from that huge data collected I want to believe a viable model can be defined once for all re. bike share in cities.
Ok the picture of plenty of bikes around the Eiffel Tower is very funny, thanks for the good laugh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2017 at 12:52am
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

I would say DHS.
Their blades, rubbers and balls are quite reasonably priced.

Can't say that I would pick DHS when they have rubber reserved for the CNT and not available to the general consumer.


Yeah what they supply to CNT is totally different from the Hurricanes on the market. I wonder which version they sent to ITTF for approval, because the other version is surely not approved   
I will say 729 or yinhe is better than DNS
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Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



On the other hand I have no idea what "honorable" means in this context.  It is a bit like asking what companies make blades that are the most "magnificent" or the most "true to the sport" or the most "epic".

Well, I put 'honourable' in inverted commas because this thread is in response to the one calling Butterfly 'dishonourable'. 

The idea really comes from skateboarding for me, another fringe sport involving a piece of wood with bits added to it that nearly every kid tries at some point but, on account of its difficulty, only very few ever take seriously and get 'good' at. 

In skateboarding brands making equipment are either approved of or not on account of who owns the brand (owned by other skaters because they love the sport= good, owned by random big company looking to make money = bad), their marketing strategies, the people associated with that brand and the perceived quality of the product.

A similar idea probably exists in most fringe activities, like people who are into obscure genres of music try to only support labels that are ethically sound and exist also for the community rather than only financial gain. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crowsfeather Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2017 at 8:52am
There is nothing to do with honourable or disornorable in business, define , worth for money would be correct term?

BTY selling sky high price doesnt mean they are dishonouring players, BTY blades are really consistence and design is catchy, and thats why lots of people using BTY.

Proper reason is BTY is kind of luxury equipment, same way people in Thailand think Mercedes is a luxury brand while Toyota is affordable and worth for money.


Buy what ever you feel comfortable and please dont make people stressed out with this kind of quesion.



Edited by Crowsfeather - 10/13/2017 at 8:53am
I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2017 at 9:56am
Yep, I like 729 and Yinhe a lot better for sure.

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

I will say 729 or yinhe is better than DNS


Edited by ZingyDNA - 10/13/2017 at 9:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2017 at 10:20am
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/historical_records/vol24.html

I have no ill feelings towards Butterfly either. They are not in the business of "honour". It's not a charity business either although they do seem to support table tennis training so that should go in the plus column.

They make great blades, and excellent rubbers. That takes time and money (R&D)

The internet makes it too easy to spread negative opinions while positive/supportive opinions often go unspoken. It's ok to have an opinion and its fine to post them too. I believe in freedom of speech.

Anyway, another company I like a lot is Ross Leidy Blades.

http://rossleidy.com/

I have yet to order a blade, but from what I have seen and read I would very much like to place a couple of orders in the near future. Simply stunning blades!!

FdT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2017 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Crowsfeather Crowsfeather wrote:

There is nothing to do with honourable or disornorable in business, define , worth for money would be correct term?

BTY selling sky high price doesnt mean they are dishonouring players, BTY blades are really consistence and design is catchy, and thats why lots of people using BTY.

Proper reason is BTY is kind of luxury equipment, same way people in Thailand think Mercedes is a luxury brand while Toyota is affordable and worth for money.


Buy what ever you feel comfortable and please dont make people stressed out with this kind of quesion.

I thought the OP was not talking about high prices but the segmentation of markets, forcing distributors to sell in THEIR markets only. If one distributor is not serious and stocks are too low the players are screwed because they can’t order from another place/country. Dishonorable is not the right word you think? How about dinausorian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Crowsfeather Crowsfeather wrote:

There is nothing to do with honourable or disornorable in business, define , worth for money would be correct term?

Really? Nothing dishonourable in business? How about overcharging consumers, underpaying staff, false advertising? 

Originally posted by Crowsfeather Crowsfeather wrote:


BTY selling sky high price doesnt mean they are dishonouring players, BTY blades are really consistence and design is catchy, and thats why lots of people using BTY.

Proper reason is BTY is kind of luxury equipment, same way people in Thailand think Mercedes is a luxury brand while Toyota is affordable and worth for money.


I wasn't actually talking about Butterfly in this thread, merely thought I'd find it interesting to find out if people care a bit about what company they give their money to. Isn't that the neo-liberal idea, that everything will fix itself as people shape the world by choosing where they put their money?

And I do genuinely wonder which brand people think is the most deserving of support. And yes, it probably isn't Butterfly.

Originally posted by Crowsfeather Crowsfeather wrote:



Buy what ever you feel comfortable and please don't make people stressed out with this kind of question.

Shocked
How is my question making people stressed out? I thought it was a very reasonable topic to raise and I was genuinely interested in what replies I'd get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

<h1><font size="3" style="font-weight: normal;">Which is the most 'honourable' brand?</h1>


This is definitely not the most popular answer (ya think?!) but I vote for... Butterfly.  They sponsor a lot of juniors here in the Maryland area and they give back a lot with the sponsored tournaments.  As for the blockage of distributors, if I was a distributor in the U.S. or Canada and people are buying somewhere else, I'd do something to protect my interests too.  As for Tenergy being expensive, and I agree that it is, you know exactly what you're paying for.  Not to pick on DHS and I don't want to get started on them but if Butterfly operated with different versions and a mystical "National version", Butterfly would get slammed but DHS seems to get away clean.  It seems that the heir apparent to Tenergy (for now) is the Evolution series.  Well, if the reviews are "this rubber performs just as well as Tenergy", don't expect Tenergy prices to go down Smile
I don't even understand why everyone complains about tenergy being too expensive. A sheet of tenergy costs 56,90€ here in Germany and a tibhar evolution mxp 44,90€. A sheet of tenergy will last for 3 month in my case, so if I do the math it would be 6 months 113,80€. The evolution, rasanter etc. will last two months, so considering that I would need to buy three rubbers. Let's say I get 20% off from my local supplier that would mean that one rubber would still cost 35.92. So in 3 months I would be spending 107.76€ on the rubbers. That's only 6€ difference and considering that I don't have to change rubbers that often with tenergy which would help the blades longevity I don't get why everyone complains.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 5:43pm
[/QUOTE] I don't even understand why everyone complains about tenergy being too expensive. A sheet of tenergy costs 56,90€ here in Germany and a tibhar evolution mxp 44,90€. A sheet of tenergy will last for 3 month in my case, so if I do the math it would be 6 months 113,80€. The evolution, rasanter etc. will last two months, so considering that I would need to buy three rubbers. Let's say I get 20% off from my local supplier that would mean that one rubber would still cost 35.92. So in 3 months I would be spending 107.76€ on the rubbers. That's only 6€ difference and considering that I don't have to change rubbers that often with tenergy which would help the blades longevity I don't get why everyone complains.[/QUOTE]

Let's face it, if there was a rubber out there that cost twice as much as Tenergy and performed maybe 10% better than current Tenergy, most of us would probably still buy it. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 6:14pm
At the end of the day practice is way more important than equipment. Wether you are using tenergy or some other rubber like evolution rasanter etc. they won't make you a different player. If people spent as much time on training as they do on ejing, they would me much better players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

At the end of the day practice is way more important than equipment. Wether you are using tenergy or some other rubber like evolution rasanter etc. they won't make you a different player. If people spent as much time on training as they do on ejing, they would me much better players.

If I spent as much time on training as I do on ej-ing I would only train for about twenty minutes a month. I'm definitely not good enough to get away with that little training.

Tongue


Edited by Simon_plays - 10/14/2017 at 7:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Let's face it, if there was a rubber out there that cost twice as much as Tenergy and performed maybe 10% better than current Tenergy, most of us would probably still buy it. Embarrassed
Did you try spinart? cost as much as Tenergy, performed 20% (amazing spin on all loops) better than Tenergy but only 50~60% Tenergy life span.
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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