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Improving serve and receive game

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    Posted: 10/20/2017 at 9:49am
Situation  1:
My serves are the weakest part of my game.  I've kept them pretty basic throughout the years.  I can serve spinny, but not deceptive.  I can serve low, short and little spin.  But again, not deceptive.  I occasionally come across players who can do anything they want with my serve.  Which leaves me feeling helpless.

Situation 2: 
My opponents serve is too good and their 3rd ball is a killer.  I can't make a good enough return so points never go past the 3rd ball.  

Also, I don't have a table at home or anywhere to practice serves.

These situations usually happen during the same match when I'm playing players 2300 or so.  I feel if I could get into the point, I have a much better chance.  I think I have a good and consistent loop and footwork.  I think I could play at a 2000-2100 level but my serve and receive game is Nukedestroying meNuke.

What's the best way to train to get past this barrier I've hit? 


Edited by Swiff - 10/20/2017 at 10:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 9:58am
Ummmm, practice your serves? Do you have a table at home?

Receiving is tougher to solve. You need to get a lot of exposure to a lot of different really good serves from lots of different players. If you live in one of the rare strong TT areas in the US you may be able to do this by playing all the tournaments and going to different clubs. Otherwise you could pay a coach to just serve at you for an hour. Don't play the points out, just multiball serve-receive.

That would help some, but it would mostly make you better at returning that one guy's serves. Versus an opponent with a different motion (a penholder, or serving bh), you might still feel lost. But some of it would transfer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 10:09am
Updated my answer to reflect your first recommendation. 

The area I live in sucks for table tennis.  There's 2 clubs, but not a whole lot of players.  And not that many good players.

And 0 coaches.  lol I want to move to California because of this.


Edited by Swiff - 10/20/2017 at 10:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 11:20am
You need to practice your service. You need to learn a variety of serving motions (Tomahawk, Pendulum, Reverse Pendulum, Backhand). With each motion you can try variations to get different spins. And of course, no spin. And also you need to vary the depth and speed of your serves as well as placement. Last, you need to vary your starting position.

And stick to a couple of motions that you feel work best for your game.

Now, Im not saying you need to be an expert on ALL serve motions, just good enough that you can use them in a  game situation if you need some variety. Knowing how to execute those motions will help you with returning serves as well since you potentially know what spin they are imparting on that ball.

Practicing serve receive with a good player of course would be the  ideal.

As for deceptive serves, there's only a few that I know of. This is the golden nugget that is very hard to find information on.
Most books wont address this ( I have bought more than a dozen in the hopes of finding info on this very subject without any luck!). As far as I know only Larry Hodges has written about how to perform these. Like I said, it is information that many keep to themselves. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:00pm
Don't think deception is that much of a secret, you just do the same motion but either contact a different part of the ball or contact the ball at a different point of the serving motion?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmileTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Don't think deception is that much of a secret, you just do the same motion but either contact a different part of the ball or contact the ball at a different point of the serving motion?


There's also aftermotions Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:07pm
I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by SmileTT SmileTT wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Don't think deception is that much of a secret, you just do the same motion but either contact a different part of the ball or contact the ball at a different point of the serving motion?


There's also aftermotions Wacko

Sure, but I always thought that those were part of the things that one doesn't bother to learn because, whilst probably being quite effective on intermediate players, they really won't do much to confuse a decent player.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

When you are at the club, practice serves when you do not play if there is a free table, arriving in advance fro example.
At home you can do this maybe? It works: http://boudour.com/servepractice

How can this possibly help anything?  

You can't see the serve's height, angle, speed, length, spin or anything else.  Placement is one of the most important things to consider with a serve.  You're just spinning a ball onto a random surface.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:


At home you can do this maybe? It works: http://boudour.com/servepractice

Now this does look interesting. 

Brett Clarke, the multimillionaire app designer, recommends doing the same thing but just onto the floor of a hallway and then onto your bed. I tried it a few times but found that nothing could quite compete with actually standing at a table and a basket full with balls to hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:22pm
Don't think deception is that much of a secret, you just do the same motion but either contact a different part of the ball or contact the ball at a different point of the serving motion?"

That's not all there is to it. You're oversimplifying things. Yes I think Brian Pace of Dynamic Table Tennis explains the thing about making contact with the ball during different phases of the arm swing to give different spins. That's ONE method. There are other methods!

As I said Only Larry Hodges has been kind enough to actually explain how to do deceptive serves, including the one already mentioned. Unless I have missed some other author. Or YouTube clip.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

When you are at the club, practice serves when you do not play if there is a free table, arriving in advance fro example.
At home you can do this maybe? It works: http://boudour.com/servepractice

How can this possibly help anything?  

You can't see the serve's height, angle, speed, length, spin or anything else.  Placement is one of the most important things to consider with a serve.  You're just spinning a ball onto a random surface.  
all my club mates say my serves are above the average level of all my other strokes. If your mind is so narrow to not let you understand why it can be useful, just ignore and avoid being rude to people who took the time to answer.


I apologize if I was rude.  My mind is open, I just need to know why this would help.  Because I can't understand it.  If you could explain, I'd appreciate it.  

And I appreciate the time you took to respond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmileTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:26pm
Simon: You'd be surprised! Any added little bit of deception that can cause confusion will definitely net a weaker return if not win a point for yourself straight away.

Swiff: In your case, the best thing you can do is to practice serves in games, when you have a sizeable/comfortable lead. You can copy some opponents' serves and try them out yourself. See how it is returned back to you, then will have a better idea what return is uncomfortable for a particular serve.

Having great serves/setups are so important. It's the one part of the game that you can have full control over. Also, half of the entire game is your and opponents' serves! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 2:28pm
Swiff, it seems you're in a very difficult situation. In order to improve your service the only option is to practice them on an actual table. Methods such as serving into carpets help to a certain extent. But nothing beats practicing at a real table.

in TT you learn by doing. Only way to get any kind of muscle memory.

So either get your own table or sneak into that club at night and practice. Reading books or youtube clips can only take you so far.

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 3:42pm
I used to have crappy serves until 2014, when I met Brett and started working with Ttedge. Since then, serves have become the strongest part of my game. It takes lots of practice to develop strong serves but I know what it is like looking for good tutorials in how to serve and not finding any. I actually opened a thread in the coaching section to collect info that I never completed.

So if anyone wants to learn a serve, let me know and if I feel I am competent enough to teach it, I will create a short free cheesy video. Of course, join Ttedge if you want a pro to teach you. I am just doing it because I remember what it was like to look for good material in how to serve and being stuck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dsc13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:


I apologize if I was rude.  My mind is open, I just need to know why this would help.  Because I can't understand it.  If you could explain, I'd appreciate it.  

And I appreciate the time you took to respond.

The reason this simple exercise helps is that you will start to develop the technique and feel required to generate heavy spin and also control the trajectory of the ball.  You'll progress in stages.  First get the ball to roll back to you, using underspin.  Then work on getting it to roll back to you at a faster pace, which will require you to learn how to generate more underspin.  Then work on hitting the ball to different distances and have the ball back to you faster and faster.

When you can hit the ball so that it lands about a few inches in front of you and then kicks violently back past you, you'll have the touch to serve a heavy short underspin

I do have one piece of really bad news for you though.  You will never be able to learn how to serve unless you practice on a table and a net.  You may need to get creative on how to duplicate it, but you will need a table of some kind and something that resembles a regulation net.  And hours of practice.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 8:16pm
Record yourself serving and post it here. You'll get a lot of advice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 808ponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 11:09pm
If you haven't already downloaded it - the TTEdge app has been a great supplement for me as far as reading serves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanhao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2017 at 11:23pm
One can practise in bedroom..one can see the spin u generate on your bedsheet...but for receiving one really got to play with more players and watch the ball coming from the player blade...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2017 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?

Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2017 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by dsc13 dsc13 wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:


I apologize if I was rude.  My mind is open, I just need to know why this would help.  Because I can't understand it.  If you could explain, I'd appreciate it.  

And I appreciate the time you took to respond.

The reason this simple exercise helps is that you will start to develop the technique and feel required to generate heavy spin and also control the trajectory of the ball.  You'll progress in stages.  First get the ball to roll back to you, using underspin.  Then work on getting it to roll back to you at a faster pace, which will require you to learn how to generate more underspin.  Then work on hitting the ball to different distances and have the ball back to you faster and faster.

When you can hit the ball so that it lands about a few inches in front of you and then kicks violently back past you, you'll have the touch to serve a heavy short underspin

I do have one piece of really bad news for you though.  You will never be able to learn how to serve unless you practice on a table and a net.  You may need to get creative on how to duplicate it, but you will need a table of some kind and something that resembles a regulation net.  And hours of practice.  

I don't think I need to practice serving heavy spin.  Heavy spin is good, I guess, but it's too easy to read.  I'd rather keep my serves subtle and deceptive with good placement.  

As for short heavy backspin serve, that's a serve I already have in my skill set.  I'd consider myself good at serving low and spinny.  My placement isn't good and usually my serves aren't short, and high level players can open the point on these serves.

I need to become more advanced in my serve game.  I need to work on placement mostly and trajectory.  (all while developing completely new serves)  

I definitely need to do this on a table, though.  I may just have to bite the bullet and buy a cheap table for the basement.


Edited by Swiff - 10/23/2017 at 2:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2017 at 4:23pm
play against the best server more, ask questions, when playing only do two serves the whole time 
ie something like a down spin and a less  or top spin
(this is when you go to the clubs)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2017 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know


+ 1 To all this advice...

There's is no magic bullet; just practice...

How bad do you want it..?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2017 at 10:32pm
As I'm not a mind reader, I don't know how bad Swiff wants it, but I want it bad.  Real bad.  Bad ass bad.  Three ball killer bad.  

And now that I can't play D very well anymore, and don't have a lot of a life other than singing and playing old time lonesome country music with my good buddies Ron Riggs and Rick Garcia, I'm just about prepared to spent the rest of my day practicing underspin/sidespin ghost serves that'll bounce back over the net and into my generously comfortable Starter shorts.

I'm even willing, and I never thought I'd be writing this, to try out, now that my cash flow has been ebbed, some of that there Grandson of Tenergy on my bh and Hurricane Neo Rank Amateur on my fh.  Plus a liberal soaking of whatever booster the pros are using these days.

Legality.  Who cares about legality?  Nobody but me in southwest Tucson knows anything about tt serve legality.  

I may have to wait till Gordy and the USATT decide to have an O-85 event, but if singing, playing my digital electronic keyboard and service practice don't kill me with my new illegal boosted unreturnable serve (don't know of any 85 year olds with a decent banana flick) I should be ready to not only be the O-85 National Champ but also take home the gold at the 2027 World Vets' in Novosibirsk.


Edited by berndt_mann - 10/23/2017 at 10:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 9:40am
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know


+ 1 To all this advice...

There's is no magic bullet; just practice...

How bad do you want it..?

Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 10:20am
Well, you need a table to practice your services. So you either use the club table or you find another table yourself. To use the club table you need to talk to your clubmates, either to let you use a table alone or, even better, to get someone else practice service/receive with you. You two can even serve from both ends of the table at the same time

If the above cannot happen, you either need to find a table that can do the above somewhere else, or, buy a table at home.

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:


Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 10:30am
Hey man if you're trying to compete with players at the 2300+ level as you mentioned in your first post you're gonna need a table to practice your serves. The thing is, you may think you need deception in your serves to improve your game and this may not actually be the case. Simple but effective serves can go a long way. Do you have video or more details about your game? Just curious.
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GMan4911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 10:59am
As a last resort, practice your serves during matches.  Instead of mixing up your serves like normal, only serve one serve, focusing on quality and not so much on winning.  The advantage of practicing serves this way is you get immediate feedback on whether the serve is good or not, something which you do not get when practicing serves alone.  There were times when I needed to practice my reverse pendulum serve so I've played matches where every single serve was the RPS.  Try it!

Quote I think I could play at a 2000-2100 level....
What is your level?



Edited by GMan4911 - 10/24/2017 at 11:20am
OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max
ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max
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