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JSH's serve against Boll

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    Posted: 11/01/2017 at 11:55am
T2APAC league game, JSH and Boll tied at 2 sets each and 4 points each, JSH to serve for the final point of the match. (Skip to 08:08)



What was on that serve for Boll to make that receive? And what did Boll think it was? Side-top misread as pure side?




Edited by Simon_plays - 11/01/2017 at 11:56am
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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 12:22pm
To me it looked like Timo misread the amount of spin, rather than the type of spin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 12:32pm
If I'm not mistaken, Boll's bat angle suggests he thought the serve was side-under.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 100niTenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 12:38pm
Agree with Koshkin !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

To me it looked like Timo misread the amount of spin, rather than the type of spin.

ILya

That would be more likely. Only reason I thought that Boll might have actually straight up misread the spin is because the ball went all the way off the table and because it was such a pressure point. But you're probably right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 12:51pm
Side-top misread as side-under.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 1:00pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, Boll's bat angle suggests he thought the serve was side-under.

Yes. He misread the serve.  Looked like his mind was still on the previous point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 3:45pm
Biggest mistake boll did was trying to place it short/half long thinking it was a loose side-under, hence requiring him to give it a little lift so that the loose serve doesn't drop dead onto the net, but he ended up giving that lil lift to a top-spin. That serve did not actually have a lot of spin, which is why boll mistook the topspin as a side-under, which goes to show that variation in the amount of spin can lead to a lot of errors from your opponent in a match as opposed to the type of spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Side-top misread as side-under.


Yep.  That one can be tricky these days since not so many BH servers and this one can be readily disguised.  Way way way back in the day Stellan Bengtsson would get people this way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 10:31pm
Okay, that's right. Question: could it not be attacked (banana, or a FH flip) instead of taking it passively?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2017 at 10:59pm
A pro once told me that they almost never misread the spin at that level if they see the serve contact, only the amount. So I am going with that.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2017 at 10:10pm
Looks like a BH side under serve with very little spin. Boll lifted it too much as he thought it was heavier. If the serve was side topspin it would have jumped up a lot more violently with the open bat angle that Boll used...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2017 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

A pro once told me that they almost never misread the spin at that level if they see the serve contact, only the amount. So I am going with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2017 at 12:41am
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Okay, that's right. Question: could it not be attacked (banana, or a FH flip) instead of taking it passively?

When presented with a serve that could be loaded with either side-top or side-under, my subconscious action would be to take it passively.

That's my conclusion from years of playing.
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+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2017 at 1:33am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Side-top misread as side-under.


Yep.  That one can be tricky these days since not so many BH servers and this one can be readily disguised.  Way way way back in the day Stellan Bengtsson would get people this way.

Also, Joo has a tendency to use the backhand serve near the end of a tight game.


@12:51. This light side-under was pretty obvious and Boll flicked it.

@13:14. Boll looped this side-under that went a little high.

Edited by zeio - 11/03/2017 at 6:05am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2017 at 2:27am
In the Asian Games team final, back against the wall, Joo used the backhand serve almost exclusively from the 3rd game onward, and mounted a counterattack.


@10:32, it was clear ML misread the side-top as a side-under. In many other instances, ML chose to receive passively as well, which landed him in hot water.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2017 at 2:47am

@8:13, Joo saved the backhand serve again for WLQ's game point. WLQ misread the side-top as a side-under.

@8:23, Joo served up the same side-top, to the exact same location. WLQ didn't fall for that again. He flicked(some may say rolled) it this time.

Edited by zeio - 11/03/2017 at 5:35am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2017 at 3:28am

In this match, MLin was practically immune to Joo's backhand serve, with the only exception @15:37 where MLin misread a side-top as a side-under, after Joo served a side-under on the previous point.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2017 at 5:38am


Joo used the backhand serve extensively starting from game 3, to little effect. @23:53, the only instance where CCY misread a side-under as a side-top and flicked it right into the bottom of the net.

Edited by zeio - 11/03/2017 at 5:50am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2017 at 11:55am
miss read, it happens to the best, pressure of the point has a lot to do with it. Also it is difficult to see from the camera angle and editing, but I'm not convinced he threw the ball up 16cm.
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