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Nittaku Factive Review |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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All right, I just came back from the Joola website. Mamma Mia. I feel like a cuckoo now. In the 2017 catalog, it dawned on me that only a handful of models come with the Tensor logo. None carry the BIOS logo.
Golden Tango X-plode X-plode Sensitive Energy Energy X-tra CWX Badman Reloaded Express ultra Tango Ultra That's it for the Tensors. Does that mean the more popular ones like the Max series and the Rhyzm series are not Tensors? I have always been under the impression that they are. My head hurts. Edited by zeio - 11/08/2017 at 5:38am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I can't argue with that at all. I just try to make the best sense I can from it.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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On the official site, the Tensor BIOS logos are listed below the picture for Musa. https://www.xiom.tt/product/product_detail.php?id=29&cp=313 The back of the package from 2013 when it was first released reads exactly like the description on the site. No word on it being the first without built-in tension. http://www.yoger.com.cn/product/141586.html Vega Pro is definitely a Tensor. No doubt about it. Musa III misses both the Tensor and BIOS logos, yet the trademark Hyper Elasto alone means it is a Tensor, and the description says it comes with BIOS. So which one do we go by? The logos? The synopsis? Personally, I treat Hyper Elasto the same as Formula Donic - a trademark mess. Despite all that, is Formula Donic not Tensor? As for Factive, it is listed under the same "Tension Series" category as the Fastarc series on the official site. Yet, G-1 is the only model that doesn't carry the "Spin+Speed TENSION" logo, but no one would deny that it is a Tensor, right? For Goldarc 5 and 8, I treat it the same as the Xiom mess. In the official description, Goldarc 8 is said to be produced using Tensor technology but no word on BIOS at all, despite the logo on the package. Yet, BIOS is used to differentiate the Goldarc 5. What a mess. Edited by zeio - 11/08/2017 at 4:06am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I can sort of squint and imagine what went on. My guess is that one reseller decided that it would be beneficial to mask the origin of the product, making it harder to lump all ESN rubber together. It escalates from there. Not sure if ESN thought that was a good idea or they didn't want to lose the business, or whatever. Maybe they even charge more to swap the standard logos out with custom, customer-specific ones? If so, Xiom must be nearly bankrupt with all the logos they use. The result is that ESN as a brand moves into the background and the reseller becomes more visible. It's probably a conscious decision that they made, but who knows? I talk to other players and many don't know that most of these rubbers come from the same factory. Some swear blind that Xiom are made in Asia, MX-P in Japan, and so on. Most just don't care, and maybe that's how ESN like it.
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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I agree with your comments Andy, but usually in this situation the manufacturer specifies contractually that their logo must appear on the packaging, to create branding, and the logo has very specific meaning. It creates value for the manufacturer. In this case, it is an utter, confused mess. Some of it purposeful but some of it has to be a huge blunder by ESN marketing management. Their logos literally mean nothing other than sort of identifying the manufacturer, maybe. Edited by richrf - 11/07/2017 at 8:55pm |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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In some ways, ESN created the rod for their own back by introducing logos and phrases without fully explaining the meaning behind them. I'm sure they would cite trade secrets as the reason for that, and they aren't alone in taking this approach. They all do it. It's the individual reseller companies who create more confusion IMO. Once the resellers removed ESN's standard logos and replaced them with their own jargon it became almost impossible to work out what was what. Add to that the inconsistent descriptions applied when marketing them and it's just a soup. I tend to rely more on my own experience, and I look to reliable reviewers to get a leg up in working out where a new rubber sits in the grand scheme of things. Of course, some companies would probably want this confusion in order to make it difficult to compare products directly. To create a distinction from a competitor, where not much of a distinction really exists. Again, I'm not sure ESN are at fault here. It's more of a natural consequence of them making similar products for many competing resellers. We have a similar situation with Daiki too, but ESN are larger-scale and get more of the flak, deserving or no. What I look for is internal consistency within each reseller's range. So when DHS release GA5 and GA8 simultaneously, one with a Bios logo, and one with Tensor and Bios logos, I take that to mean one is a Tensor, and both are Bios, in my opinion. Definitive? No. Most likely? I think so, yes. I would like to be able to compare all of ESN's products to each other, but why would they make that easy to do? I'm sure Joola would have something to say if ESN produced a big list of all their products and revealed that (totally making this up now) that one of their €50 rubbers was 99% the same as a €35 Palio one. I just don't think that it's going to happen. You have to rely on each individual reseller providing solid information just to get an idea of where their own product lie in relation to each other, and not many do. Nittaku are pretty good for this when it comes to their ESN stuff, Andro have recently improved a lot. Joola don't bother much, Tibhar try to willfully deceive, and Xiom blind you with a torrent of buzzwords and nicely-designed flashy imagery. We sometimes talk about ESN being a manufacturer in the same way that Butterfly is, but the whole strategic approach is different. Xiom can come up with any old rubbish to describe each new range until the whole package is one enormous grid of logos and slogans, but that's probably Xiom's decision and not ESN's. But if a company still chooses to use ESN's logos then I'll take it at face value for the time being and try to pin something meaningful to it.
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Nothing like branding without meaning. Someone in ESN's marketing department has done a darn poor job. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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That said, I see where you are coming from. We have "Tensor", and "Tensor Bios". I take these terms to be two separate technologies - Tensor and Bios - and they are generally seen together in ESN rubbers (unless a company decides to rename the whole thing, making it near-impossible to work out what's going on). Hence two logos. Bios without the Tensor is a fairly recent thing, brought in when ESN started going after the "classic" market, hence one logo.
No idea about "Tensor Bond". I thought that was just a glue? edit - another one to think about - Joola Golden Tango. It has the Tensor logo, but not the Bios. Meaningful? Maybe.
Edited by AndySmith - 11/07/2017 at 5:28pm |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I agree with what you say - it is confusing. The Tensor logo used to be more common, and then individual companies started to market it as their own thing, coming up with their own jargon to distinguish their rubbers from other companies (even though it was obvious to those with eyes that they were made in the same factory and were very similar).
Xiom Musa (the original) is another one worth looking at. From TT11:
And yet it has the Bios logo. IMO, Vega Pro is a Tensor, Musa III China I can't be sure. Ultimately, I go by the packaging and not the marketing jargon - it's more reliable. Xiom are certainly hard to track sometimes, and their english language descriptions are often riddled with errors. So maybe Xiom are wrong in their description, maybe not. They aren't the most reliable of narrators, but their Musa line was started from the position of "non-tensor" but labelled as Bios, so there is that. The lack of the Tensor logo doesn't mean that any specific rubber isn't a Tensor, sure, I totally agree with that. But GA5 lacks it, GA8 has it, they were released at the same time from the same factory. You can blame the general chaos of labeling if you want, but in the case of GA5 and GA8 (and based on the translated text from the link you supplied, which specifically states they are different things and they apply to the rubbers "respectively"), I'm going with GA8 is a Tensor, and GA5 is not. GA5 is marketed is "all round", GA8 is not. GA5 is much slower than most top-line ESN Tensors.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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From my own research, the omission of the Tensor logo does not necessarily mean the rubber is not a Tensor.
Upon its release, BIOS was never advertised alone, it always referred to the Tensor BIOS. ESN made a distinction between Tensor, Tensor 3G and Tensor BIOS. The same Tensor icon was used for the first two, for the third the BIOS icon was added. On the early Tensor dedicated site by ESN, BIOS and BOND were used alone in the menu header, yet both referred to Tensor BIOS and Tensor BOND, respectively. Check out the download section, the poster PDFs for Tensor BIOS all have their filenames referred by the word BIOS alone. In the official Xiom 2010 catalog, here is how Tensor BOND was described:
Some HYPER ELASTO rubbers miss both the Tensor and Tensor BIOS icons, yet Xiom chose to bunch it together with the Tensor and Tensor BIOS. This is how Xiom describes HYPER ELASTO: https://www.xiom.tt/product/product_detail.php?id=660&cp=312
MUSA III China has the BIOS logo but misses the Tensor logo, yet in the description provided:
https://www.xiom.tt/product/product_detail.php?id=32&cp=313 Vega Pro has them all. This is why I don't like Xiom and what I hate about ESN as a whole. Very messy product lines and trademarks. Edited by zeio - 11/07/2017 at 4:41pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Don't want to dwell on this too much, but "Bios" and "Tensor" are different and are not interchangeable.
Going off the packaging DHS use for these two rubbers: Goldarc 5 is Bios, but not Tensor. Goldarc 8 is both. Goldarc 8 is the only one of the two with the Tensor logo on. Of course, there could be a mistake on the packaging. Or the above quote could have a slight mistake contained within, or something could be being lost in translation. But regardless, GA5 is lots slower than most ESN rubbers and my opinion is that the packaging is correct. IMO, the lack of "tensor" logo on GA5 and the presence of it on GA8 is meaningful, rather than a mistake or intentional misdirection. edit - here is the quote from the same link, run through Google Translate:
Note the use of "respectively", and how Tensor is referred to as a "new" technology, pointing towards it being an additional thing, separate from Bios.
Edited by AndySmith - 11/07/2017 at 1:56pm |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Goldarc 5 and 8 are considered Tensors, as described by DHS.
(What is the production technology for the Goldarc 5 and 8? Both rubbers have combined the DHS highly-elastic particle permeation technology and German built-in tension technology. Highly-elastic particle permeation technology, is to put a type of nano-sized highly-elastic particles in the rubber, especially the sponge, to substantially reduce the energy loss between sponge molecules, which in turn comprehensively releases the energy stored in the sponge. This can greatly enhance the sponge elasticity and support, and increases shot speed and catapult. BIOS and Tensor are the technologies of German ESN, which are used in Goldarc 5 and 8. BIOS is a concept of built-in tension similar to the DHS NEO technology. The Tensor technology is a new process of built-in tension, where the kinetic energy, elasticity, and power are greater, and rubber longevity is longer.) |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I've wanted to give this a bash for a while, and it was on offer last week at TT11 so here we go.
Nittaku Factive - Red - Super thick (2.0mm) Uncut weight - 60.69g Cut weight (to 157x150) - 43.21g Size - 169x169 Made in Germany Nittaku give it a sponge rating of 45 degrees, and that feels about right, and they market it as "my first tension rubber". Topsheet is fairly soft. I'm not sure if this is classed as a tensor (the packet does say "spin and speed tension" like Fastarc P1) or if it falls into the non-tensor ESN bracket like DHS Goldarc 5. The topsheet is matte and not like the semi-translucent effect on GA5,Musa,etc so that's a good sign IMO, but I'll have to wait and see when I give it a try. The RRP is cheaper than the Fastarc range (4000 yen against 6000). No obvious booster smell. First Session OK, so first session is in the can now. I have some potentially interesting feelings about this rubber, but please take them with a pinch of salt for now until I've got more table time in. Obviously, this thread has become somewhat wandering in terms of subject, but one crucial point to address about this rubber is where it sits relative to other ESN. Slow and allround like Musa, fast and catapulty like MX-P, fast and linear like R47, and so on. I hesitate to say tensor and non-tensor here because who can know for sure, and Nittaku have their own labeling system. But anyway, it's faster than Musa by a clear margin so my opinion is that we can do away with that idea immediately. The sponge is 45 degrees, it plays a touch softer than that but is clearly harder than, say, V42 or R42. I can't be sure why it is, but Factive felt quite inert and non-responsive at low speeds in comparison to most recent rubbers I've used in this kind of class (Hype KR, Aurus Select come to mind). Then there is good catapult through the middle and higher gears. In that sense it felt a bit non-linear, but the top speed isn't as high as some of its peers either so it wasn't so tricky. The spin was very impressive. The relaxed low-gear feel allows you to really put some dig into slower shots (slow rolls, sharp pushes) without too much worry that the ball will go wild. This gives a lot of latitude to vary shot selection and to adjust the arc. It did feel a bit more sensitive to spin than my usual rubber, but the low catapult balances that out somewhat in the context of short game/receive. Looping was very good - once you've got the topsheet and sponge under load it becomes a good performer for a variety of looping. The arc is fairly high so lifting backspin is pretty easy, there is just enough catapult to assist when in loop-loop from slightly further back. It didn't fare as well when counterhitting - a bit too slow and reactive to spin - and it's strength seemed more aimed at continuous looping/topspin. Pithy comparison time - a slightly slower Aurus Select with lower catapult but better spin. But my initial impression at the end of the session was that this could be a possible alternative to Baracuda. I'll try to concentrate on that aspect of things in my next session because I think that's a sizable statement to make and I don't want to have to backtrack on it. Second Session It's a touch softer than Baracuda overall, but harder than Baracuda Big Slam, so Baracuda EL is what I'm going for. My setup has got R47 on the other side and it's obvious that Factive is slower overall, but I wouldn't call it allround. I think the impression of speed and how it behaves is the feature than keeps reminding me of Baracuda the most - it was always the ESN of it's generation that felt a touch slower than its peers. Factive also shares some of Baracuda's sensitivity to spin. During an open play session, I felt that Factive made some aspects of the game incredibly easy. Attacking short serves with flicks and rolls was just brilliant - the high-ish throw, big grip, lower catapult all meant I could really apply pressure on the receive, and not resort to a predictable, inviting push. Looping simple balls was also very cool, and picking up balls from below table height was excellent. However, blocking heavy spin and passive service receives were tricky. Hitting through high, spinny balls (dealing with slow loops) was also moderately tougher than the R47 (and my usual V42, or Hype KR). I'm still very impressed by this rubber. Sure, it's a touch slower than mainline 45 degree ESN rubber, but it isn't the big step down that Musa or Joola Zack were. And the spin is really high. And the price is good too. The concern for others would be the reduced speed (I suppose most people would have it on a fairly fast blade), spin sensitivity in passive play, and no idea on durability yet. But hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with the Baracuda references.
Edited by AndySmith - 11/13/2017 at 11:04am |
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