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2017 WJTTC (Nov 26 to Dec 3, 2017)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2017 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Give me a break, you listed FZD as being a successful player.

I understand what Wang Tao is saying and it is a very different context.  

Maybe you might have meant that many junior champions at WJTTC don't win senior world championships, which is understandable for a variety of reasons (annual vs biannual, many players not competing in every single year that they are eligible which allows for some players to win in years where they are not the best junior player, life accidents like injuries and addictions or mental issues), but any one in the top 50 is a successful player.  And the WJTTC top 3 finishers are often in that class easily.  And the idea that someone is on the CNT A team or playing in the Super League and is not a successful player is a high standard to me.


Wha? FZD is not? Is World Cup not a world title? Am I hallucinating?

How is Wang Tao speaking in a different context? You need major titles to persuade people. Waldner said as much.

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11881
Quote No Europeans? Jean-Michel Saive? Tibor Klampar? Jean-Phillipe Gatien?
No, none of them. Saive and Klampar did not even win any major titles.
...
All players on your list are not entirely contemporary. None in the top five have won a title after 2005. Why are none of the younger ones on your list?
The younger ones have not achieved enough yet. It is as simple as that.


Like what bbkon said, many of the former WJTTC singles champs have failed to live up to their fullest potential once they turn senior.

In 2009, after narrowly losing to MLin, when asked when he could become an Olympic gold medalist like MLin, Kenta claimed "within 5 years." In another report, he even claimed he would get a WTTC gold medal as well.

http://www.plus-blog.sportsnavi.com/worldtt/article/185
Quote 馬琳のように、金メダリストになるまであと何年?と聞かれて)あと5年以内に絶対なりたい

http://www.nikkansports.com/sports/wttc/2009/news/p-sp-tp0-20090503-490121.html
Quote 松平健は「将来は世界選手権や五輪で金メダル」と聞かれ「あと5年以内に絶対になれます」と屈託なく話し、力強く胸を張った。


Needless to say, it was widely reported in China. Then came London, now Rio. Even the folks in Japan wondered what happened to him as well, and can't help but feel that he is a wasted talent.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q14148931194
Quote こんなに大健闘できる選手が何故か、五輪が近付く時期になると調子が悪く出場確率が低下します。

もったいない選手のように思えませんか?


Many of them have spoken that results in the majors are what count.

CCA on his performance after winning the WTTC MD title:

https://www.nownews.com/news/20130521/270411
Quote ...畢竟我在2008年世青金牌後的大賽都沒甚麼好成績...

(...after all, I have not gotten any good results in the majors after the WJTTC title in 2008...)

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2014-01-05/09476966589.shtml
Tian Zichao, a coach and former CNT player, as well as Table Tennis World reporter stationed in Germany, revealed how CCA encountered 2 major bottlenecks after his WJTTC singles title because of well-noted deficiencies in his game that he got away with. First in 2010, when he was stuck around WR150 due to his poor short game. Second in 2012, when he got stuck around WR100 for a long time due to his poor backhand. When he finally worked out those two problems, he already missed his chance to play in London. Shortly after his first World MD Champ title, he fell off the World Ranking list when diagnosed with AS.

Same case for Jeong Sangeun. He shined in his junior days, but things went south for him ever since his shoulder injury and considered retiring.

http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aId=3032352
Quote Despite his outstanding junior career, Jeong struggled in his senior career, frequently being on the second division national team. He did help Korea win a silver medal at the 2014 Incheon Asian Games in men’s doubles, but Jeong never got to compete at the Olympics, falling behind players like Jung Young-sik and Lee Sang-su.

“Since the Incheon Asian Games, Jeong injured his shoulder and from this, he had a hard time mentally,” said Lee Chul-seung, coach of Samsung Life Table Tennis Club.


In another interview after ATTC 2017, Jeong said before his flight to Wuxi, he called his club coach telling him that he was nothing, other than the Asian Games team silver medalist. And now a veteran at 27, he wanted to prove himself to his juniors.

https://bbs.hupu.com/19004093.html
Quote Q:在亚锦赛开赛前向所属俱乐部的教练表达了自己的觉悟?
A:是的。因为想传达自己的心声,所以在区中国之前,在机场打电话给了教练。目前我所展现出来的除了亚运会团体银牌之外就没有了。因为久违地获得太极旗标志,也很好奇自己究竟能走多远。不知不觉已经27岁了,可以算是老将了。想要在年轻的后辈们面前证明自己,所以与教练约定一定会努力做的。


The case is even more dire for Fang Bo. When he finally became World Team Cup Champion in early 2015, Table Tennis World published an article about his days after the WJTTC Grand Slam(Gold in MS, MD, XD and team). Fang Bo said he got cocky at the time, and the WJTTC titles became a burden on him. The first thing he did after becoming a "World Champ(by playing in one match only) was a tweet - "Please stop calling me World Junior Champ." He had been stuck with that title long enough.

http://csol.sports.cn/yls/magzine/jing/pingpang/268/2015-02-12/2349161.html
Quote “现在想想,2009年的时候其实我也没有多棒,只是自己觉得自己太好了。如果不是之后那几年我走了弯路,可能我早就在现在这个位置了。”

(Now that I look back on it, I wasn't really all that great in 2009. I was just obsessed with myself. If I didn't go down the wrong path in the past several years, I would have been where I am now long ago.

Have I made myself clear?

Edited by zeio - 12/04/2017 at 12:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2017 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Give me a break, you listed FZD as being a successful player.

I understand what Wang Tao is saying and it is a very different context.  

Maybe you might have meant that many junior champions at WJTTC don't win senior world championships, which is understandable for a variety of reasons (annual vs biannual, many players not competing in every single year that they are eligible which allows for some players to win in years where they are not the best junior player, life accidents like injuries and addictions or mental issues), but any one in the top 50 is a successful player.  And the WJTTC top 3 finishers are often in that class easily.  And the idea that someone is on the CNT A team or playing in the Super League and is not a successful player is a high standard to me.

 
Wha? FZD is not? Is World Cup not a world title? Am I hallucinating?

How is Wang Tao speaking in a different context? You need major titles to persuade people. Waldner said as much. 

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11881
Quote No Europeans? Jean-Michel Saive? Tibor Klampar? Jean-Phillipe Gatien?
No, none of them. Saive and Klampar did not even win any major titles.
...
All players on your list are not entirely contemporary. None in the top five have won a title after 2005. Why are none of the younger ones on your list?
The younger ones have not achieved enough yet. It is as simple as that.


Like what bbkon said, many of the former WJTTC singles champs have failed to live up to their fullest potential once they turn senior.

In 2009, after narrowly losing to MLin, when asked when he could become an Olympic gold medalist like MLin, Kenta claimed "within 5 years." In another report, he even claimed he would get a WTTC gold medal as well.

http://www.plus-blog.sportsnavi.com/worldtt/article/185
Quote 馬琳のように、金メダリストになるまであと何年?と聞かれて)あと5年以内に絶対なりたい

http://www.nikkansports.com/sports/wttc/2009/news/p-sp-tp0-20090503-490121.html
Quote 松平健は「将来は世界選手権や五輪で金メダル」と聞かれ「あと5年以内に絶対になれます」と屈託なく話し、力強く胸を張った。


Needless to say, it was widely reported in China. Then came London, now Rio. Even the folks in Japan wondered what happened to him as well, and can't help but feel that he is a wasted talent.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q14148931194
Quote こんなに大健闘できる選手が何故か、五輪が近付く時期になると調子が悪く出場確率が低下します。

もったいない選手のように思えませんか?


Many of them have spoken that results in the majors are what count.

CCA on his performance after winning the WTTC MD title:

https://www.nownews.com/news/20130521/270411
Quote ...畢竟我在2008年世青金牌後的大賽都沒甚麼好成績...

(...after all, I have not gotten any good results in the majors after the WJTTC title in 2008...)

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2014-01-05/09476966589.shtml
Tian Zichao, a coach and former CNT player, as well as Table Tennis World reporter stationed in Germany, revealed how CCA encountered 2 major bottlenecks after his WJTTC singles title because of well-noted deficiencies in his game that he got away with. First in 2010, when he was stuck around WR150 due to his poor short game. Second in 2012, when he got stuck around WR100 for a long time due to his poor backhand. When he finally worked out those two problems, he already missed his chance to play in London. Shortly after his first World MD Champ title, he fell off the World Ranking list when diagnosed with AS.

Same case for Jeong Sangeun. He shined in his junior days, but things went south for him ever since his shoulder injury and considered retiring.

http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aId=3032352
Quote Despite his outstanding junior career, Jeong struggled in his senior career, frequently being on the second division national team. He did help Korea win a silver medal at the 2014 Incheon Asian Games in men’s doubles, but Jeong never got to compete at the Olympics, falling behind players like Jung Young-sik and Lee Sang-su. 

“Since the Incheon Asian Games, Jeong injured his shoulder and from this, he had a hard time mentally,” said Lee Chul-seung, coach of Samsung Life Table Tennis Club.


In another interview after ATTC 2017, Jeong said before his flight to Wuxi, he called his club coach telling him that he was nothing, other than the Asian Games team silver medalist. And now a veteran at 27, he wanted to prove himself to his juniors.

https://bbs.hupu.com/19004093.html
Quote Q:在亚锦赛开赛前向所属俱乐部的教练表达了自己的觉悟?
A:是的。因为想传达自己的心声,所以在区中国之前,在机场打电话给了教练。目前我所展现出来的除了亚运会团体银牌之外就没有了。因为久违地获得太极旗标志,也很好奇自己究竟能走多远。不知不觉已经27岁了,可以算是老将了。想要在年轻的后辈们面前证明自己,所以与教练约定一定会努力做的。


The case is even more dire for Fang Bo. When he finally became World Team Cup Champion in early 2015, Table Tennis World published an article about his days after the WJTTC Grand Slam(Gold in MS, MD, XD and team). Fang Bo said he got cocky at the time, and the WJTTC titles became a burden on him. The first thing he did after becoming a "World Champ(by playing in one match only) was a tweet - "Please stop calling me World Junior Champ." He had been stuck with that title long enough.

http://csol.sports.cn/yls/magzine/jing/pingpang/268/2015-02-12/2349161.html
Quote “现在想想,2009年的时候其实我也没有多棒,只是自己觉得自己太好了。如果不是之后那几年我走了弯路,可能我早就在现在这个位置了。”

(Now that I look back on it, I wasn't really all that great in 2009. I was just obsessed with myself. If I didn't go down the wrong path in the past several years, I would have been where I am now long ago.

Have I made myself clear?

Ma Long won the World Cup in 2012.  Did Wang Tao change his opinion after that?  I doubt it.  But I will not dwell on it,

Not living up to the supposedly fullest potential is not the same thing as being unsuccessful or being a failure.  I have presented a few reasons why this is the case.  'I will recap:

1.  The first is that while the WTTC is a biannual event, the WJTTC is an annual event.  This means that there are more opportunities to create WJTTC champs than WTTC champs.
2.  Many winners can be affected by life accidents from addictions to mental disorders to injuries.
3.  Many of those winners may not have been the best junior champions in the years they were eligible because the best eligible players don't always play.

THat said, with very few exceptions, every junior champion went on to have a decent pro-career and just about everyone in the top 4 did and became a top 50 player if they didn't have a life accident.  Even in the NFL, the #1 draft pick  or a Heisman winning quarter back is not always a sure thing.  And there is more money in the NFL than in table tennis.

But when we start saying that Koki Niwa is WR 5 but is unsuccessful because he hasn't won a major title as an adult, we are getting fairly ridiculous.

Jeong SangEun won his title over Xui Ruifeng.  I think that was a commentary itself on the quality of players in that year. 

As for Kenta, what do you expect him to say?  Reality bites.  We all have dreams if we want to go somewhere.  Even if we fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2017 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

The age difference was clear. BTW, what is real age of Xue Fei?
I actually like the fact that Moregard was not the winner in this final. It teaches him a lot more than if he had somehow won over the somewhat better Xue Fei. I agree with those who said that once he starts including good aggressive spinney loops on both sides, his diversity of shots will be enormous. Having Moregard now is a great, very interesting development for TT.
My own observation is also that another player taking the ball very quickly (let's call it a non-looper) goes very high in a world event. Yes, you guessed it, the other one has been Miu Hirano. I think some people made a real effort thinking about how the Chinese school of TT can be challenged, and we are now seeing the results... But there is always an antidote. I wish Moregard well.


another great post from JakeGM, this time when it matters: there is so much insight in underlining his loss has more value for him. Good awareness jake

I will take it with a grain of salt Wink... Seriously, I hope Moregard will quickly learn to play with the most optimal tempo, right now he is great at rushing shots, often it works, but quite often it does not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2017 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Sun Yingsha ended the dream of 3-time WJTTC singles title for Wang Manyu.

I love the way she spins the ball up (Yingsha) like a boy

please feel free to copy and paste 9-10 times to get your word across
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2017 at 11:16pm
You can teach mechanics. You can't create genius. You can destroy a genius, but u can't create it. The chinese have the highest IQ in the world, not counting the german jews which are a small subgroup. The chinese have hundreds of millions of people. With such large population and and such high average, statistically it would be impossible not to have geniuses in that population. But they don't. They have thousands of PhDs in science, but they don't have any geniuses. The Ivy league schools in US are 40% asian even with anti asian discrimination, but there are no chinese geniuses. It is a pure miracle that the chinese have all this brainpower and no genius in anything. Until you find out that their culture destroys it. If anyone here reads this - don't crush your kid if he is rebellious! A true genius will never conform! 
I rant again but i used to be fascinated with what makes a genius and read a lot about this.
Now just trust me, i've seen this kid behave between points and after game. For me the fact that he reached the final is really not as important as his behavior. He has all traits of The Immortals. 
One of the reasons I fell in love with ZJK instead of the technically superior ma long is ZJK's rebellios character. Most westerners don't appreciate how hard it is to be rebellious in China. But he was, and in the National team, nevertheless. He got scorned and scolded in front of everybody, and demoted and came back. I respect that. 
The guys who said that Moriarti should be humble... - you don't know how destructive an advice this is for an immortal. Humble can destroy an immortal. Not that Morriarti is humble - just saying that immortals need the confidence to flourish. There is nothing with humble for everyone but one in a million, but Morriarti is just that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 3:30am
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

You can teach mechanics. You can't create genius. You can destroy a genius, but u can't create it. The chinese have the highest IQ in the world, not counting the german jews which are a small subgroup. The chinese have hundreds of millions of people. With such large population and and such high average, statistically it would be impossible not to have geniuses in that population. But they don't. They have thousands of PhDs in science, but they don't have any geniuses. The Ivy league schools in US are 40% asian even with anti asian discrimination, but there are no chinese geniuses. It is a pure miracle that the chinese have all this brainpower and no genius in anything. Until you find out that their culture destroys it. If anyone here reads this - don't crush your kid if he is rebellious! A true genius will never conform! 
I rant again but i used to be fascinated with what makes a genius and read a lot about this.
Now just trust me, i've seen this kid behave between points and after game. For me the fact that he reached the final is really not as important as his behavior. He has all traits of The Immortals. 
One of the reasons I fell in love with ZJK instead of the technically superior ma long is ZJK's rebellios character. Most westerners don't appreciate how hard it is to be rebellious in China. But he was, and in the National team, nevertheless. He got scorned and scolded in front of everybody, and demoted and came back. I respect that. 
The guys who said that Moriarti should be humble... - you don't know how destructive an advice this is for an immortal. Humble can destroy an immortal. Not that Morriarti is humble - just saying that immortals need the confidence to flourish. There is nothing with humble for everyone but one in a million, but Morriarti is just that one.


Not sure what you're smoking there.... This post is almost on pat with igorponger's drunk posts...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 10:12am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

You can teach mechanics. You can't create genius. You can destroy a genius, but u can't create it. The chinese have the highest IQ in the world, not counting the german jews which are a small subgroup. The chinese have hundreds of millions of people. With such large population and and such high average, statistically it would be impossible not to have geniuses in that population. But they don't. They have thousands of PhDs in science, but they don't have any geniuses. The Ivy league schools in US are 40% asian even with anti asian discrimination, but there are no chinese geniuses. It is a pure miracle that the chinese have all this brainpower and no genius in anything. Until you find out that their culture destroys it. If anyone here reads this - don't crush your kid if he is rebellious! A true genius will never conform! ....


Not sure what you're smoking there.... This post is almost on pat with igorponger's drunk posts...
Let me debunk claims of the "The Chinese have the highest IQ in the world". we practice and study IQ tests, and that is no joke. We know most of the IQ test tricks. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Ma Long won the World Cup in 2012.  Did Wang Tao change his opinion after that?  I doubt it.  But I will not dwell on it,

Not living up to the supposedly fullest potential is not the same thing as being unsuccessful or being a failure.  I have presented a few reasons why this is the case.  'I will recap:

1.  The first is that while the WTTC is a biannual event, the WJTTC is an annual event.  This means that there are more opportunities to create WJTTC champs than WTTC champs.
2.  Many winners can be affected by life accidents from addictions to mental disorders to injuries.
3.  Many of those winners may not have been the best junior champions in the years they were eligible because the best eligible players don't always play.

THat said, with very few exceptions, every junior champion went on to have a decent pro-career and just about everyone in the top 4 did and became a top 50 player if they didn't have a life accident.  Even in the NFL, the #1 draft pick  or a Heisman winning quarter back is not always a sure thing.  And there is more money in the NFL than in table tennis.

But when we start saying that Koki Niwa is WR 5 but is unsuccessful because he hasn't won a major title as an adult, we are getting fairly ridiculous.

Jeong SangEun won his title over Xui Ruifeng.  I think that was a commentary itself on the quality of players in that year. 

As for Kenta, what do you expect him to say?  Reality bites.  We all have dreams if we want to go somewhere.  Even if we fail.

ML's fans may find that Wang Tao is biased. However, he actually commended him for his performance in Moscow, particularly in the SF match against Japan. He even said ML could bear the burden in the final, but we know what happened.

http://sports.sohu.com/20100529/n272429825.shtml
Quote 对于第二个出场的马龙,王涛则毫不吝啬赞美之词:“马龙打得非常好,打出了气势,我相信他在决赛中也能担当重任。”


But one thing is certain, Wang Tao never once criticized ML since 2012.

Unsuccessful/a failure =/= not live up to fullest potential?

So to determine if I'm delusional, I proceeded to Google and here is a short list of what I got for "unsuccessful players."

The 25 Greatest NBA Players Who Never Were | Bleacher Report
Quote This list isn't just for the future stars who never got the chance to shine—who squandered their talent—but also for the ones who had it untimely ripped away from them.


Top 15 Great College Players In Recent Memory That Failed In The NBA
Quote Not all of these college basketball stars exceed at the NBA level and most of the stars of the NCAA peak at that level...There are some that make the NBA and there are others that make it but do not perform nearly as well as they did in college.


Top 15 Great College Players Who Failed In The NBA - TheSportster
Quote In this article, we will be looking at the top 15 greatest college players who completely failed in the NBA. These guys could have been much more than they turned out to be, as they were the creme of the crop during their college days, however they couldn’t seem to get the ball rolling during their insignificant time in the NBA.


Top 20 Wastes of Talent in World Football History
Quote Football’s history is filled with players that showed glimpses of greatness early in their careers who went on to be nothing more than average professionals. These situations can happen for a variety of reasons. Perhaps a scout misidentified the level of talent that existed within a prospect. In other cases, injury can be to blame for stealing a player’s physical gifts. However, there are always those players whose mentality does not allow them to succeed, whether it is through self-sabotage or simply a lack of desire. All of these are common narratives in the tales of once promising players.


Need I post more?

Waldner didn't think Saive and Klampar belonged to the all-time greats. Madness! Saive was WR1 in 1993 and stayed there for 15 months. What was he smoking?

Before you think Waldner is a cuckoo, Gatien did not make it to his list either. To this date, Gatien is still the second best European player by major titles. He was the closest to achieve the Grand Slam after Waldner. He was WR1 right before the Barcelona Olympics.

Koki Niwa's WR5 status, huh? To be fair to him, he is just about to enter his prime. So we will see.

Quality of players in that year? Xu Ruifeng has retired from the CNT, along with MLin, WLQ, Chen Qi, Qiu Yike and a few others since 2013. He was only 21 at the time. The reason given was that he failed to make it to the top echelon of CNT.

http://sports.sohu.com/20131209/n391507833.shtml
Quote 许锐锋目前才21岁,对于他退出国家队的事,代天云说:“主要是他打不进国家队主力层。”


I don't question the justification of our Junior Champions. Quite the opposite, many of us merely feel that many of them have not done their senior careers justice.

Honestly, I wish you folks could read these on your own, so that I don't have to go to the trouble of quoting just to be on the same page.

Do you have any idea how Matsudaira is viewed by the general public in Japan?

http://pingpong-news.net/2015/12/23/%E6%AD%AF%E3%81%8C%E3%82%86%E3%81%84%E3%80%81%E6%AD%AF%E3%81%8C%E3%82%86%E3%81%99%E3%81%8E%E3%82%8B%E6%B0%B8%E9%81%A0%E3%81%AE%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9%E5%80%99%E8%A3%9C%E3%80%8C%E6%9D%BE%E5%B9%B3/
"To Kenta Matsudaira - the Frustrating Eternal Ace Candidate" is the title of an entry by blogger pingpongman. The author gives an in-depth account of his career, citing that his career is filled with alternating promises and disappointments.

Kenta Matsudaira beat Ovtcharov in 2006 to become Junior Champ, at the age of 15. He then attended WTTC 2007 and beat Korbel 4:0 at R128. As impressive as he was, he still didn't escape the fate shared by many others. In Decemeber of that year, he was diagnosed with the TFCC injury. The inpatient surgery and rehab forced him out of competition for much of 2008.

That didn't stop him, though. He returned in August 2008 and took gold at the Inter-High School Championships. In January 2009, he placed 2nd at the All-Japan Championships, losing to Mizutani. The impact of his match with MLin at the WTTC 2009 was so strong, TV Tokyo made an emergency live broadcast.

As the author puts it,
Quote この時、皆が思った。
「マツケンこそ、次期エースに違いない!」

(Everyone thought at the time Matsu-Ken will be the next ace!)

Quote 僕らとしては、どうしてもマツケンに期待してしまったし、その期待に耐えられる男だと思っていた。

(In fact, We had great anticipation for Matsu-Ken and I thought he was the one that could meet that expectation.)

But he got stuck for the next 3 years, during which the public started to shift the focus onto Koki Niwa and Maharu Yoshimura. The author wondered "what happened to you, Matsu-Ken? Premature death?"

Quote 「マツケン、どしちゃったの」と思うけれども、色んな世界によく居る、「早熟の終わった人」になるのかなぁ…というぼんやりとした思いを抱きながら、その後現れた、サウスポーの前陣スター、丹羽孝希や怪力ドライブ番長・吉村真晴に意識は移っていった。


Just when everyone was about to forget him, he came right back with a bang, but we know how the plot panned out.

Edited by zeio - 12/05/2017 at 12:50pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 1:15pm
No point continuing this, you bring up endless details to continue missing the point that  the standard of a high level player evaluating his peers to see who the best of the best is is not the same as someone looking at these players from the outside and asking whether after they were junior champs, they continued to be successful world class players.  And if we continue to look at the past few years and ask ourselves how many players have won different major titles, we see that it is consistently the same players preventing others from winning them, and that therefore, my reasons are sufficient in most cases to explain why even WJTTC players if they fulfilled their potential would struggle to win any major titles - they would be going up against other great WTTC players.

There are of course clear failures, but like in any other sport, these are part of life.  If you analyzed the careers of WJTTC champs, vs silver medallists vs, bronze medallists, are you saying that the silver medallists do better than the Gold medallists?   Or that the bronze medallists do best?  Or that the best players are never playing in WJTTC.

The only point in responding is that the articles are of interest to many people.  But the argument itself continues to miss the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 1:49pm
This thread is heading into dangerous territory. 
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Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This thread is heading into dangerous territory. 


I'm not even sure what they're arguing about? Seems what the standards of being successful should be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Long live the penhold grip.

It'll be interesting to observe Moregard's development as a reincarnated Waldner. I think he has to work on his forehand timing. It's all off-the-bounce.

Penhold would have died if not for the endangered species protection that China gives it. Xue Fei's RPB is excellent: very solid indeed. It's not clear however whether Xue Fei can improve much.

Did people see Moregard give Zhou Yu a very hard time in this year's protour? He was impressive, but nobody really knows how he is going to develop further and raise his game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:


Did people see Moregard give Zhou Yu a very hard time in this year's protour? He was impressive, but nobody really knows how he is going to develop further and raise his game.

Grow older.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2017 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Ma Long won the World Cup in 2012.  Did Wang Tao change his opinion after that?  I doubt it.  But I will not dwell on it,

Not living up to the supposedly fullest potential is not the same thing as being unsuccessful or being a failure.  I have presented a few reasons why this is the case.  'I will recap:

1.  The first is that while the WTTC is a biannual event, the WJTTC is an annual event.  This means that there are more opportunities to create WJTTC champs than WTTC champs.
2.  Many winners can be affected by life accidents from addictions to mental disorders to injuries.
3.  Many of those winners may not have been the best junior champions in the years they were eligible because the best eligible players don't always play.

THat said, with very few exceptions, every junior champion went on to have a decent pro-career and just about everyone in the top 4 did and became a top 50 player if they didn't have a life accident.  Even in the NFL, the #1 draft pick  or a Heisman winning quarter back is not always a sure thing.  And there is more money in the NFL than in table tennis.

But when we start saying that Koki Niwa is WR 5 but is unsuccessful because he hasn't won a major title as an adult, we are getting fairly ridiculous.

Jeong SangEun won his title over Xui Ruifeng.  I think that was a commentary itself on the quality of players in that year. 

As for Kenta, what do you expect him to say?  Reality bites.  We all have dreams if we want to go somewhere.  Even if we fail.

ML's fans may find that Wang Tao is biased. However, he actually commended him for his performance in Moscow, particularly in the SF match against Japan. He even said ML could bear the burden in the final, but we know what happened.

http://sports.sohu.com/20100529/n272429825.shtml
Quote 对于第二个出场的马龙,王涛则毫不吝啬赞美之词:“马龙打得非常好,打出了气势,我相信他在决赛中也能担当重任。”


But one thing is certain, Wang Tao never once criticized ML since 2012.

Unsuccessful/a failure =/= not live up to fullest potential?

So to determine if I'm delusional, I proceeded to Google and here is a short list of what I got for "unsuccessful players."

The 25 Greatest NBA Players Who Never Were | Bleacher Report
Quote This list isn't just for the future stars who never got the chance to shine—who squandered their talent—but also for the ones who had it untimely ripped away from them.


Top 15 Great College Players In Recent Memory That Failed In The NBA
Quote Not all of these college basketball stars exceed at the NBA level and most of the stars of the NCAA peak at that level...There are some that make the NBA and there are others that make it but do not perform nearly as well as they did in college.


Top 15 Great College Players Who Failed In The NBA - TheSportster
Quote In this article, we will be looking at the top 15 greatest college players who completely failed in the NBA. These guys could have been much more than they turned out to be, as they were the creme of the crop during their college days, however they couldn’t seem to get the ball rolling during their insignificant time in the NBA.


Top 20 Wastes of Talent in World Football History
Quote Football’s history is filled with players that showed glimpses of greatness early in their careers who went on to be nothing more than average professionals. These situations can happen for a variety of reasons. Perhaps a scout misidentified the level of talent that existed within a prospect. In other cases, injury can be to blame for stealing a player’s physical gifts. However, there are always those players whose mentality does not allow them to succeed, whether it is through self-sabotage or simply a lack of desire. All of these are common narratives in the tales of once promising players.


Need I post more?

Waldner didn't think Saive and Klampar belonged to the all-time greats. Madness! Saive was WR1 in 1993 and stayed there for 15 months. What was he smoking?

Before you think Waldner is a cuckoo, Gatien did not make it to his list either. To this date, Gatien is still the second best European player by major titles. He was the closest to achieve the Grand Slam after Waldner. He was WR1 right before the Barcelona Olympics.

Koki Niwa's WR5 status, huh? To be fair to him, he is just about to enter his prime. So we will see.

Quality of players in that year? Xu Ruifeng has retired from the CNT, along with MLin, WLQ, Chen Qi, Qiu Yike and a few others since 2013. He was only 21 at the time. The reason given was that he failed to make it to the top echelon of CNT.

http://sports.sohu.com/20131209/n391507833.shtml
Quote 许锐锋目前才21岁,对于他退出国家队的事,代天云说:“主要是他打不进国家队主力层。”


I don't question the justification of our Junior Champions. Quite the opposite, many of us merely feel that many of them have not done their senior careers justice.

Honestly, I wish you folks could read these on your own, so that I don't have to go to the trouble of quoting just to be on the same page.

Do you have any idea how Matsudaira is viewed by the general public in Japan?

http://pingpong-news.net/2015/12/23/%E6%AD%AF%E3%81%8C%E3%82%86%E3%81%84%E3%80%81%E6%AD%AF%E3%81%8C%E3%82%86%E3%81%99%E3%81%8E%E3%82%8B%E6%B0%B8%E9%81%A0%E3%81%AE%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9%E5%80%99%E8%A3%9C%E3%80%8C%E6%9D%BE%E5%B9%B3/
"To Kenta Matsudaira - the Frustrating Eternal Ace Candidate" is the title of an entry by blogger pingpongman. The author gives an in-depth account of his career, citing that his career is filled with alternating promises and disappointments.

Kenta Matsudaira beat Ovtcharov in 2006 to become Junior Champ, at the age of 15. He then attended WTTC 2007 and beat Korbel 4:0 at R128. As impressive as he was, he still didn't escape the fate shared by many others. In Decemeber of that year, he was diagnosed with the TFCC injury. The inpatient surgery and rehab forced him out of competition for much of 2008.

That didn't stop him, though. He returned in August 2008 and took gold at the Inter-High School Championships. In January 2009, he placed 2nd at the All-Japan Championships, losing to Mizutani. The impact of his match with MLin at the WTTC 2009 was so strong, TV Tokyo made an emergency live broadcast.

As the author puts it,
Quote この時、皆が思った。
「マツケンこそ、次期エースに違いない!」

(Everyone thought at the time Matsu-Ken will be the next ace!)

Quote 僕らとしては、どうしてもマツケンに期待してしまったし、その期待に耐えられる男だと思っていた。

(In fact, We had great anticipation for Matsu-Ken and I thought he was the one that could meet that expectation.)

But he got stuck for the next 3 years, during which the public started to shift the focus onto Koki Niwa and Maharu Yoshimura. The author wondered "what happened to you, Matsu-Ken? Premature death?"

Quote 「マツケン、どしちゃったの」と思うけれども、色んな世界によく居る、「早熟の終わった人」になるのかなぁ…というぼんやりとした思いを抱きながら、その後現れた、サウスポーの前陣スター、丹羽孝希や怪力ドライブ番長・吉村真晴に意識は移っていった。


Just when everyone was about to forget him, he came right back with a bang, but we know how the plot panned out.


wasnt anton kallberg from sweden giving a hard fight to players like fzd ? people were talking the same way like moregard and now where is kallberg and why he has stopped playing good tournaments?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTslurp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 1:18am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Ma Long won the World Cup in 2012.  Did Wang Tao change his opinion after that?  I doubt it.  But I will not dwell on it,

Not living up to the supposedly fullest potential is not the same thing as being unsuccessful or being a failure.  I have presented a few reasons why this is the case.  'I will recap:

1.  The first is that while the WTTC is a biannual event, the WJTTC is an annual event.  This means that there are more opportunities to create WJTTC champs than WTTC champs.
2.  Many winners can be affected by life accidents from addictions to mental disorders to injuries.
3.  Many of those winners may not have been the best junior champions in the years they were eligible because the best eligible players don't always play.

THat said, with very few exceptions, every junior champion went on to have a decent pro-career and just about everyone in the top 4 did and became a top 50 player if they didn't have a life accident.  Even in the NFL, the #1 draft pick  or a Heisman winning quarter back is not always a sure thing.  And there is more money in the NFL than in table tennis.

But when we start saying that Koki Niwa is WR 5 but is unsuccessful because he hasn't won a major title as an adult, we are getting fairly ridiculous.

Jeong SangEun won his title over Xui Ruifeng.  I think that was a commentary itself on the quality of players in that year. 

As for Kenta, what do you expect him to say?  Reality bites.  We all have dreams if we want to go somewhere.  Even if we fail.

ML's fans may find that Wang Tao is biased. However, he actually commended him for his performance in Moscow, particularly in the SF match against Japan. He even said ML could bear the burden in the final, but we know what happened.

http://sports.sohu.com/20100529/n272429825.shtml
Quote 对于第二个出场的马龙,王涛则毫不吝啬赞美之词:“马龙打得非常好,打出了气势,我相信他在决赛中也能担当重任。”


But one thing is certain, Wang Tao never once criticized ML since 2012.

Unsuccessful/a failure =/= not live up to fullest potential?

So to determine if I'm delusional, I proceeded to Google and here is a short list of what I got for "unsuccessful players."

The 25 Greatest NBA Players Who Never Were | Bleacher Report
Quote This list isn't just for the future stars who never got the chance to shine—who squandered their talent—but also for the ones who had it untimely ripped away from them.


Top 15 Great College Players In Recent Memory That Failed In The NBA
Quote Not all of these college basketball stars exceed at the NBA level and most of the stars of the NCAA peak at that level...There are some that make the NBA and there are others that make it but do not perform nearly as well as they did in college.


Top 15 Great College Players Who Failed In The NBA - TheSportster
Quote In this article, we will be looking at the top 15 greatest college players who completely failed in the NBA. These guys could have been much more than they turned out to be, as they were the creme of the crop during their college days, however they couldn’t seem to get the ball rolling during their insignificant time in the NBA.


Top 20 Wastes of Talent in World Football History
Quote Football’s history is filled with players that showed glimpses of greatness early in their careers who went on to be nothing more than average professionals. These situations can happen for a variety of reasons. Perhaps a scout misidentified the level of talent that existed within a prospect. In other cases, injury can be to blame for stealing a player’s physical gifts. However, there are always those players whose mentality does not allow them to succeed, whether it is through self-sabotage or simply a lack of desire. All of these are common narratives in the tales of once promising players.


Need I post more?

Waldner didn't think Saive and Klampar belonged to the all-time greats. Madness! Saive was WR1 in 1993 and stayed there for 15 months. What was he smoking?

Before you think Waldner is a cuckoo, Gatien did not make it to his list either. To this date, Gatien is still the second best European player by major titles. He was the closest to achieve the Grand Slam after Waldner. He was WR1 right before the Barcelona Olympics.

Koki Niwa's WR5 status, huh? To be fair to him, he is just about to enter his prime. So we will see.

Quality of players in that year? Xu Ruifeng has retired from the CNT, along with MLin, WLQ, Chen Qi, Qiu Yike and a few others since 2013. He was only 21 at the time. The reason given was that he failed to make it to the top echelon of CNT.

http://sports.sohu.com/20131209/n391507833.shtml
Quote 许锐锋目前才21岁,对于他退出国家队的事,代天云说:“主要是他打不进国家队主力层。”


I don't question the justification of our Junior Champions. Quite the opposite, many of us merely feel that many of them have not done their senior careers justice.

Honestly, I wish you folks could read these on your own, so that I don't have to go to the trouble of quoting just to be on the same page.

Do you have any idea how Matsudaira is viewed by the general public in Japan?

http://pingpong-news.net/2015/12/23/%E6%AD%AF%E3%81%8C%E3%82%86%E3%81%84%E3%80%81%E6%AD%AF%E3%81%8C%E3%82%86%E3%81%99%E3%81%8E%E3%82%8B%E6%B0%B8%E9%81%A0%E3%81%AE%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9%E5%80%99%E8%A3%9C%E3%80%8C%E6%9D%BE%E5%B9%B3/
"To Kenta Matsudaira - the Frustrating Eternal Ace Candidate" is the title of an entry by blogger pingpongman. The author gives an in-depth account of his career, citing that his career is filled with alternating promises and disappointments.

Kenta Matsudaira beat Ovtcharov in 2006 to become Junior Champ, at the age of 15. He then attended WTTC 2007 and beat Korbel 4:0 at R128. As impressive as he was, he still didn't escape the fate shared by many others. In Decemeber of that year, he was diagnosed with the TFCC injury. The inpatient surgery and rehab forced him out of competition for much of 2008.

That didn't stop him, though. He returned in August 2008 and took gold at the Inter-High School Championships. In January 2009, he placed 2nd at the All-Japan Championships, losing to Mizutani. The impact of his match with MLin at the WTTC 2009 was so strong, TV Tokyo made an emergency live broadcast.

As the author puts it,
Quote この時、皆が思った。
「マツケンこそ、次期エースに違いない!」

(Everyone thought at the time Matsu-Ken will be the next ace!)

Quote 僕らとしては、どうしてもマツケンに期待してしまったし、その期待に耐えられる男だと思っていた。

(In fact, We had great anticipation for Matsu-Ken and I thought he was the one that could meet that expectation.)

But he got stuck for the next 3 years, during which the public started to shift the focus onto Koki Niwa and Maharu Yoshimura. The author wondered "what happened to you, Matsu-Ken? Premature death?"

Quote 「マツケン、どしちゃったの」と思うけれども、色んな世界によく居る、「早熟の終わった人」になるのかなぁ…というぼんやりとした思いを抱きながら、その後現れた、サウスポーの前陣スター、丹羽孝希や怪力ドライブ番長・吉村真晴に意識は移っていった。


Just when everyone was about to forget him, he came right back with a bang, but we know how the plot panned out.


wasnt anton kallberg from sweden giving a hard fight to players like fzd ? people were talking the same way like moregard and now where is kallberg and why he has stopped playing good tournaments?


At comparable age, Truls is better so he probably will continuue so. In general, better at young age = better at older age.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTslurp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 1:22am
continue. Touchpad :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 1:45am
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Long live the penhold grip.

It'll be interesting to observe Moregard's development as a reincarnated Waldner. I think he has to work on his forehand timing. It's all off-the-bounce.


Penhold would have died if not for the endangered species protection that China gives it. Xue Fei's RPB is excellent: very solid indeed. It's not clear however whether Xue Fei can improve much.

Did people see Moregard give Zhou Yu a very hard time in this year's protour? He was impressive, but nobody really knows how he is going to develop further and raise his game.


I think Xue Fei could potentially make it just because he's the only consistent and powerful RPBer which produces very different spin. He also plays safe and powerful and a bit slower unlike FZD who goes for crazy off the bounce shots almost all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 5:41am
Who's missing the point here, to be honest?

At the beginning of the year, there was a thread on Tieba on the Junior Champs over the years. Almost 1/3 of the responses comment that so many of the Junior Champs have become wasted talents. Practically no one disagreed.

http://tieba.baidu.com/mo/q---8DCA854BD7EF087E4FE9EAAB31704A8F%3AFG%3D1-sz%40320_240%2C-1-3-0--2--wapp_1512548652628_7/m?kz=4936396140&new_word=&pn=0&lp=6005


2楼. 好像很多冠军都不怎么样啊(It seems many Champions are not all that special)
重复轨迹 1-12 08:42

12楼. 李虎和李茜是谁呀?还有曹丽思,常晨晨。怎么现在都没名了?(Who are Li Hu and Li Qian? Also Cao Lixi, Chang Chenchen. Why are they nobodies now?)
Mystiquep 1-12 09:51

世青赛冠军以后未必能很了不起(World Junior Champions may not necessarily become great later)
锦马龙 1-12 11:25

回复 锦马龙 :我觉得要看几岁拿的冠军,还要看是不是实际年龄(Reply: I feel that the age they became Champion is another factor, and whether that is their real age)
lovelyyjs 1-12 12:07

13楼. 有些应该上的结果半路折戟了。。。(Some of them who should have gone up have dropped out...)
米霍克船长 1-12 10:03

14楼. 宋鸿远彻底销声匿迹了(Song Hongyuan has completely vanished)
宓曦84 1-12 10:04

15楼. 看来天才少年到了成年还能那么厉害的并不多,马龙牛逼(It looks like the young prodigies who are still that good in senior years are few and far between. ML is freaking awesome)
我最爱看戏 1-12 10:07

16楼. 有一半伤仲永了,马龙不容易啊(Half of them are wasted talents. It has not been easy for ML.)
沧海苍梧 1-12 10:42

一大半(Over a half)
锦马龙 1-12 11:26

22楼. 宋宏远现在在干什么(What is Song Hongyuan up to now?)
GloomyWhite 1-12 12:01

24楼. 看样子理解冠军除了极少数人出头了,大部分人泯然众人已,张本智和也不见得能出头(Looking at this, other than a select few Champions have made it, the majority of them have turned into normal people. Harimoto may not make it either.)
5A啊5A 1-12 12:10

25楼. 哈哈我觉得要把冠军的实际年龄标上去,这个表格才有统计分析上的参考意义。
张本智和不要小瞧他,想想8年以后(Haha, I feel that their real age must be taken into account for this table to have any statistical value. Don't underrate Harimoto. Imagine 8 years later.)
lovelyyjs 1-12 12:14

27楼. 鲍姆 O_o 难怪有鲍姆精神 ;-)(Baum O_o No wonder there is the Baum Spirit ;-))
小飞人😂 1-12 12:17

30楼. 这个冠军记得的人不多(Not many people remember this Champion)
xiaoxinggirl 1-12 12:54     

37楼. 中国世青赛十八岁以下都可以参加,但是十八岁和十五岁的也可以一起打吗?(18 years old and below may enter the WJTTC. Does that mean an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old can compete together?)
grapelove2010 1-12 17:48

可以啊,抽签啊,又不是按照年龄(Yes, of course. By draw, not by age.)
somewhere拉扯 1-12 19:00

回复 somewhere拉扯 :啊?那不是挺不公平的,如果十五岁的和十八岁的打。像那种还差几天十八岁的去参加,岂不是特别不公平?(Reply: Wha? It's no fair. If a 15-year-old plays an 18-year-old, the one that is a few days away from 18, how is that fair?)
grapelove2010 1-12 19:06

回复 grapelove2010 :确实会这样的,德国鲍姆就是18岁踩着线参加比赛得的冠军,不过现在就一直没打出来(Reply: Well, that's true. Baum of Germany was essentially 18 when he entered and took the title, but he has not made it till now.)
春哥传专用ID 1-14 20:39

回复 春哥传专用ID :鲍姆算德国的三号吧,得过欧锦赛冠军,凑凑活活吧(Reply: Baum is the German number 3. He has won the ETTC title before. Not too shabby)
5A啊5A 1-15 08:12

回复 5A啊5A :刚出道时还会打下团体赛三号,后来不知道为啥变成了年纪更大的斯特格了(Reply: He was the third spot in team event when he debuted, but for whatever reason turned into an older Steger.)
春哥传专用ID 1-15 11:22

回复 春哥传专用ID :前两年他父亲过世,有抑郁症,没恢复(Reply: His dad passed away two years ago. That loss caused him a depression. He couldn't recover)
yhlanqier 3-12 17:55

40楼. 李虎是谁?(Who is Li Hu?)
君临远方 1-14 12:20

43楼. 16年的冠军13岁,厉害了(The 2016 Champion was 13. Cool)
wojifsa 1-14 16:55

那不一定,丹羽孝希拿过世青赛冠军,水谷隼没拿过,水谷现在还不是妥妥的日本一哥,但是丹羽不是。(Not necessarily. Koki Niwa has won the title before, and Mizutani has not. Now Mizutani is still the no 1 in Japan.)
grapelove2010 1-14 18:23

回复 grapelove2010 :重点是他年龄小(Reply: The point is his young age)
wojifsa 1-14 19:23

回复 wojifsa :可是表格上大部分外国选手的冠军后来都不怎么样了(Reply: Yet, the majority of foreign players on that table have turned out not to be that great)
grapelove2010 1-14 19:25

回复 wojifsa :这个纪录很难破了(Reply: That record is hard to break)
lovelyyjs 1-14 19:26

回复 grapelove2010 :要结合年龄看(Reply: Age has to be taken into account)
lovelyyjs 1-14 19:26

回复 lovelyyjs :确实,前无古人后无来者(Reply: True. Never before and never after)
wojifsa 1-14 19:34

回复 wojifsa :前无古人,后有没有来者不好说(Reply: Never before, yes, but never after is hard to tell)
grapelove2010 1-14 19:38

45楼. 大部分现在都不怎么样啊(Most of them are not all that great now)
hamawep 3-12 17:53

少年赛和成年差很多,差一岁就差不少(Junior and senior are far apart. One year is a lot of difference)
临海的听风 3-12 17:59

天才也有区别的,毕竟环振东这种属于少数中的少数(Even prodigies are not created equal, given a case like FZD is the minority within minority.)
寂寞的开裆裤 3-12 19:13

46楼. 这么看04年郭跃已经参加奥运会了呀真的天才少女了可惜了(In that case Guo Yue already played in the Olympics in 2004. A young prodigy indeed. What a shame)
我从未忘记你☞ 3-12 18:02

Edited by zeio - 12/06/2017 at 9:24am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 8:48am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Who's missing the point here, to be honest?

At the beginning of the year, there was a thread on Tieba on the Junior Champs over the years. Almost 1/3 of the responses comment that so many of the Junior Champs have become wasted talents. Practically no one disagreed.

http://tieba.baidu.com/mo/q---8DCA854BD7EF087E4FE9EAAB31704A8F%3AFG%3D1-sz%40320_240%2C-1-3-0--2--wapp_1512548652628_7/m?kz=4936396140&new_word=&pn=0&lp=6005


2楼. 好像很多冠军都不怎么样啊(It seems many Champions are not all that special)
重复轨迹 1-12 08:42

12楼. 李虎和李茜是谁呀?还有曹丽思,常晨晨。怎么现在都没名了?(Who are Li Hu and Li Qian? Also Cao Lixi, Chang Chenchen. Why are they nobodies now?)
Mystiquep 1-12 09:51

世青赛冠军以后未必能很了不起(World Junior Champions may not necessarily become great later)
锦马龙 1-12 11:25

回复 锦马龙 :我觉得要看几岁拿的冠军,还要看是不是实际年龄(Reply: I feel that the age they became Champion is another factor, and whether that is their real age)
lovelyyjs 1-12 12:07

13楼. 有些应该上的结果半路折戟了。。。(Some of them who should have gone up have dropped out...)
米霍克船长 1-12 10:03

14楼. 宋鸿远彻底销声匿迹了(Song Hongyuan has completely vanished)
宓曦84 1-12 10:04

15楼. 看来天才少年到了成年还能那么厉害的并不多,马龙牛逼(It looks like the young prodigies who are still that good in senior years are few and far between. ML is freaking awesome)
我最爱看戏 1-12 10:07

16楼. 有一半伤仲永了,马龙不容易啊(Half of them are wasted talents. It has not been easy for ML.)
沧海苍梧 1-12 10:42

一大半(Over a half)
锦马龙 1-12 11:26

22楼. 宋宏远现在在干什么(What is Song Hongyuan up to now?)
GloomyWhite 1-12 12:01

24楼. 看样子理解冠军除了极少数人出头了,大部分人泯然众人已,张本智和也不见得能出头(Looking at this, other than a select few Champions have made it, the majority of them have turned into normal people. Harimoto may not make it either.)
5A啊5A 1-12 12:10

25楼. 哈哈我觉得要把冠军的实际年龄标上去,这个表格才有统计分析上的参考意义。
张本智和不要小瞧他,想想8年以后(Haha, I feel that their real age must be taken into account for this table to have any statistical value. Don't underrate Harimoto. Imagine 8 years later.)
lovelyyjs 1-12 12:14

27楼. 鲍姆 O_o 难怪有鲍姆精神 ;-)(Baum O_o No wonder there is the Baum Spirit ;-))
小飞人😂 1-12 12:17

30楼. 这个冠军记得的人不多(Not many people remember this Champion)
xiaoxinggirl 1-12 12:54     

37楼. 中国世青赛十八岁以下都可以参加,但是十八岁和十五岁的也可以一起打吗?(18 years old and below may enter the WJTTC. Does that mean an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old can compete together?)
grapelove2010 1-12 17:48

可以啊,抽签啊,又不是按照年龄(Yes, of course. By draw, not by age.)
somewhere拉扯 1-12 19:00

回复 somewhere拉扯 :啊?那不是挺不公平的,如果十五岁的和十八岁的打。像那种还差几天十八岁的去参加,岂不是特别不公平?(Reply: Wha? It's no fair. If a 15-year-old plays an 18-year-old, the one that is a few days away from 18, how is that fair?)
grapelove2010 1-12 19:06

回复 grapelove2010 :确实会这样的,德国鲍姆就是18岁踩着线参加比赛得的冠军,不过现在就一直没打出来(Reply: Well, that's true. Baum of Germany was essentially 18 when he entered and took the title, but he has not made it till now.)
春哥传专用ID 1-14 20:39

回复 春哥传专用ID :鲍姆算德国的三号吧,得过欧锦赛冠军,凑凑活活吧(Reply: Baum is the German number 3. He has won the ETTC title before. Not too shabby)
5A啊5A 1-15 08:12

回复 5A啊5A :刚出道时还会打下团体赛三号,后来不知道为啥变成了年纪更大的斯特格了(Reply: He was the third spot in team event when he debuted, but for whatever reason turned into an older Steger.)
春哥传专用ID 1-15 11:22

回复 春哥传专用ID :前两年他父亲过世,有抑郁症,没恢复(Reply: His dad passed away two years ago. That loss caused him a depression. He couldn't recover)
yhlanqier 3-12 17:55

40楼. 李虎是谁?(Who is Li Hu?)
君临远方 1-14 12:20

43楼. 16年的冠军13岁,厉害了(The 2016 Champion was 13. Cool)
wojifsa 1-14 16:55

那不一定,丹羽孝希拿过世青赛冠军,水谷隼没拿过,水谷现在还不是妥妥的日本一哥,但是丹羽不是。(Not necessarily. Koki Niwa has won the title before, and Mizutani has not. Now Mizutani is still the no 1 in Japan.)
grapelove2010 1-14 18:23

回复 grapelove2010 :重点是他年龄小(Reply: The point is his young age)
wojifsa 1-14 19:23

回复 wojifsa :可是表格上大部分外国选手的冠军后来都不怎么样了(Yet, the majority of foreign players on that table have turned out not to be that great)
grapelove2010 1-14 19:25

回复 wojifsa :这个纪录很难破了(That record is hard to break)
lovelyyjs 1-14 19:26

回复 grapelove2010 :要结合年龄看(Age has to be taken into account)
lovelyyjs 1-14 19:26

回复 lovelyyjs :确实,前无古人后无来者(True. Never before and never after)
wojifsa 1-14 19:34

回复 wojifsa :前无古人,后有没有来者不好说(Never before, yes, but never after is hard to tell)
grapelove2010 1-14 19:38

45楼. 大部分现在都不怎么样啊(Most of them are not all that great now)
hamawep 3-12 17:53

少年赛和成年差很多,差一岁就差不少(Junior and senior are far apart. One year is a lot of difference)
临海的听风 3-12 17:59

天才也有区别的,毕竟环振东这种属于少数中的少数(Even prodigies are not created equal, given a case like FZD is the minority within minority.)
寂寞的开裆裤 3-12 19:13

46楼. 这么看04年郭跃已经参加奥运会了呀真的天才少女了可惜了(In that case Guo Yue has already played in the Olympics in 2004. A young prodigy indeed. What a shame)
我从未忘记你☞ 3-12 18:02



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 9:29am
Stats are just stats; here stats are presented as a curse; data is shown to advance irrational ideas; and when it does not work, more data is coming...euh, ok
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 9:41am
Again, there are good points in zeio's articles, so it is worth reading.  A good thing mentioned in that forum is that the tournament has a range of ages up to 18.  Therefore, it is probably more predictive of high potential to win it at a much younger age (before 15 or 16) than at 17 or 18 - similar tools are used by analytics specialists when predicting degree of success in the NBA.  I still disagree with the standards for successful player but that is me. A good example was Baum. He was the German #3 for a while yet some still consider him a failure and a choked. But he is clearly a successful TT professional.

Edited by NextLevel - 12/06/2017 at 12:43pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Long live the penhold grip.

It'll be interesting to observe Moregard's development as a reincarnated Waldner. I think he has to work on his forehand timing. It's all off-the-bounce.


Penhold would have died if not for the endangered species protection that China gives it. Xue Fei's RPB is excellent: very solid indeed. It's not clear however whether Xue Fei can improve much.

Did people see Moregard give Zhou Yu a very hard time in this year's protour? He was impressive, but nobody really knows how he is going to develop further and raise his game.


I think Xue Fei could potentially make it just because he's the only consistent and powerful RPBer which produces very different spin. He also plays safe and powerful and a bit slower unlike FZD who goes for crazy off the bounce shots almost all the time.
So, the guy that I have seen many times who looked like FZD, and was spin-looping with power (not off-bounce..) was not FZD, ha?
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 11:46am
People remember Guo Yue, an incredible talent? She won the world championship (the real one, not the junior event) when she was still a teenager. I remember watching her live in Yokohama at the finals (she lost that final but won two years earlier). I had a seat really close to the table. A rare prodigy. Just incredible. But she got kicked out of the CNT for "lack of interest/application". I guess it's hard when you've achieved the pinnacle of your sport so young, so early.

Edited by sandiway - 12/07/2017 at 11:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 12:07pm
Yes, she was such a natural.

I tried to get better at that hook serve that allows to hide better what spin we put on the ball but somehow I always fall back to the regular or reverse pendulum.

# 12,13,14 there:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16113&PN=1&title=short-game-servicetechniques-gif
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 1:32pm
I think Gou Yue was playing through injury for most of her later years.  When she was on top of her games, choppers have no chance...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2017 at 7:41am
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Long live the penhold grip.

It'll be interesting to observe Moregard's development as a reincarnated Waldner. I think he has to work on his forehand timing. It's all off-the-bounce.


Penhold would have died if not for the endangered species protection that China gives it. Xue Fei's RPB is excellent: very solid indeed. It's not clear however whether Xue Fei can improve much.

Did people see Moregard give Zhou Yu a very hard time in this year's protour? He was impressive, but nobody really knows how he is going to develop further and raise his game.

Xue Fei has come a long way. He lost so bad to Muramatsu in the SF in 2014 because he was so slow and weak at 15. Common to all RPB players, his forehand was also the weakest link. Will see how far he grows down the road.

As for Moregard, here is what Zhou Yu said.

Watch with CC on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9J-WiM753w
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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