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Did the plastic ball kill the LP pushblocking game

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    Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:11pm
Even after the frictionless ban in 2008, there were still many 2200+ pushblockers remaining..
Since the plastic ball, I can only think of one active long pips pushblocker who is above 2200 (Zhi-Ming Li). Until recently, I haven't even gotten close to 2200's since the plastic ball..and even now at 2197, I doubt that I will be able to maintain that rating.. I personally felt that the plastic ball took 50 to 100 points off the effectiveness of my game as people can now hit through my blocks where before, opponents had to push a lot more against my blocks. Any other pushblockers on here with similar experience?

Edited by Pushblocker - 12/21/2017 at 8:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:43pm

The speed deceleration of the plastic ball has helped the LP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nachalnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:45pm
Yep! It's got more difficult as the reversal is less profound. I have to rely much more on placement and timing than on a pure chop block. I also have to attack much more. This requires faster blades and, therefore, produces more unforced errors. However, it's still fun to play!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


The speed deceleration of the plastic ball has helped the LP.

It has helped choppers but certainly not blockers.. You may be able to block balls that you previously couldn't get your hand on but opponents can kill those blocks a lot easier due to the lack of spin. My post is not regarding all long pips styles, just the "at the table" pushblocking style..


Edited by Pushblocker - 12/21/2017 at 8:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:51pm
Before the plastic ball, I rarely lost to anyone below 2100.. Since the plastic ball, there are several 1900 to low 2000 players at the club that destroy me now easily and they never beat me before the plastic ball.. Mostly those with little spin in their game now completely destroy me.. I even almost lost to a 1800 player early November...    I definitely have a much harder time.. I can still beat 2200's and 2300 players from time to time. So, my potential for better wins stayed the same but the potential for bad losses has increased many times.. In most tournaments, I beat 2200 players but then I lose to high 1900's or low to mid 2000 which I did not lose to previously. Last week I went to the club after not playing at the club for a long time and lost 4 matches to a player in the low 1900's and lost the last 2 0:3..

Edited by Pushblocker - 12/21/2017 at 8:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:58pm
Some 2200 - 2300 pushblockers before the plastic ball are all sub 2200 now..

Shanazari, Wetzler, Burnside, myself and several others..


Edited by Pushblocker - 12/21/2017 at 8:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nachalnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 8:58pm
It's hard for me to say in terms of wins and losses as I had a few serious injuries that sidelined me for months at a time, but playing flat hitters did become much more difficult. The best strategy against the flat hitters now is to keep pushing deep to the left and wait for a relatively high ball to either loop or smash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

It's hard for me to say in terms of wins and losses as I had a few serious injuries that sidelined me for months at a time, but playing flat hitters did become much more difficult. The best strategy against the flat hitters now is to keep pushing deep to the left and wait for a relatively high ball to either loop or smash.
Good strategy if you have a good attack.. For those pushblockers like myself who depend on my opponents misses, it has become very difficult.. People make less mistakes and can hit through more blocks with it..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nachalnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 9:18pm
If you think I have good attack, think again. I tore my calf a couple of years ago so every time I have to turn to flathit or loop it's a job and a half. To partially compensate for that, I'm using sticky Chinese rubbers on a thin sponge and developed pretty effective serves so I can win a point or two from the get go. I'm also hoping that either dr. n or somebody else would finally come up with something to compensate for the loss of reversal...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2017 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


The speed deceleration of the plastic ball has helped the LP.

It has helped choppers but certainly not blockers.. You may be able to block balls that you previously couldn't get your hand on but opponents can kill those blocks a lot easier due to the lack of spin. My post is not regarding all long pips styles, just the "at the table" pushblocking style..

I disagree about the plastic ball helping choppers. Most choppers live on their opponents spin. So while the ball is slower, it is less spinney and that hurts choppers. Also offensive players may hit more than loop and choppers do not like hitters either. Just my opinion. I do agree it hurts pushblockers more than choppers tho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 12:36am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

It's hard for me to say in terms of wins and losses as I had a few serious injuries that sidelined me for months at a time, but playing flat hitters did become much more difficult. The best strategy against the flat hitters now is to keep pushing deep to the left and wait for a relatively high ball to either loop or smash.

Good strategy if you have a good attack.. For those pushblockers like myself who depend on my opponents misses, it has become very difficult.. People make less mistakes and can hit through more blocks with it..



the problem with pushblockers is that 40+ will have a higher bounce with LP before that you had to keep pushing because most pushed balls were lower ,Because that you need lower throw pips like MP used by modern choppers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MydasDiablo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 2:13am
Chops from sponged pips clearly have less spin on them, spin variation (typically the float no-spin chop) wins far more points now than chops that see the opponent dump it in the net. 

As a long time user of D.Tecs OX and now Dornenglanz OX, it is safe to say that reversal on blocks is nowhere near what it used to be. I too now win more points by throwing in a no-spin roll off the pips which the opponent loops long, than I do getting them to dump it in the net (which I used to do at will with the old ball). 

I have had to concentrate on training my forehand to be my main weapon and try and force myself to play with that side wherever possible. If you use OX LP then for me you need to be trying to emulate Liu Song at the higher levels, beastly forehand trying to win the point as quickly as possible before they can pin you on your backhand. The top guys in my division will just pin me on my BH and then loop cross court wide enough that I can't get there, my footwork isn't good enough to play Liu Song's inside out forehand from the backhand side to stop them doing it. 

My personal view based on my own experience is that Amateurs will need serious coaching, a lot of practice and be very fit if they are to be successful at a high level being a chopper, more so with the new ball as many more chops come back. For OX LP users, go the Liu Song monster forehand route, change to Anti-Spin (which has much more reversal but requires inverting your angles on blocks compared to LP and that is much easier said than done), or the route I am taking is to continue in matches with LP to maintain our position in the league, but practice with double inverted (concentrating on BH) with a view to changing in 1-2 years when my backhand catches up with my forehand.   

I am sure different people's experiences will vary, these are just my humble thoughts based on mine.

For reference, I play in the top Division at local league level with a 50% or so average. We have a lot of County standard Vets in our league and they just love playing against pips.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 6:41am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

It's hard for me to say in terms of wins and losses as I had a few serious injuries that sidelined me for months at a time, but playing flat hitters did become much more difficult. The best strategy against the flat hitters now is to keep pushing deep to the left and wait for a relatively high ball to either loop or smash.

Good strategy if you have a good attack.. For those pushblockers like myself who depend on my opponents misses, it has become very difficult.. People make less mistakes and can hit through more blocks with it..



the problem with pushblockers is that 40+ will have a higher bounce with LP before that you had to keep pushing because most pushed balls were lower ,Because that you need lower throw pips like MP used by modern choppers

For my game, the height of the balls is not the issue.. I can keep my returns just as low as with the old ball.. My problem is the lack of spin..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

It's hard for me to say in terms of wins and losses as I had a few serious injuries that sidelined me for months at a time, but playing flat hitters did become much more difficult. The best strategy against the flat hitters now is to keep pushing deep to the left and wait for a relatively high ball to either loop or smash.

Good strategy if you have a good attack.. For those pushblockers like myself who depend on my opponents misses, it has become very difficult.. People make less mistakes and can hit through more blocks with it..



the problem with pushblockers is that 40+ will have a higher bounce with LP before that you had to keep pushing because most pushed balls were lower ,Because that you need lower throw pips like MP used by modern choppers


For my game, the height of the balls is not the issue.. I can keep my returns just as low as with the old ball.. My problem is the lack of spin..


are you still using talon? what Lp is like the neubauer superblock or similar play?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 10:09am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:


are you still using talon? what Lp is like the neubauer superblock or similar play?
I'm using Talon National Team which is the newer version with a rubber mix better for the plastic ball.. Same rubber, different rubber mix
There is nothing left that plays like superblock, even though if you play enough outdoors table tennis, your rubbers properties will improve over time..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nachalnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 10:27am
I guess, the answer is to get something really durable, like Talon or Cropcircles that can last you for years without breaking and just let it get old and lose friction. Unfortunately, this seems to be the only viable option now...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 10:32am
Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

I guess, the answer is to get something really durable, like Talon or Cropcircles that can last you for years without breaking and just let it get old and lose friction. Unfortunately, this seems to be the only viable option now...


which Lp makes harder nastier returns crop or talon?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 10:41am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

I guess, the answer is to get something really durable, like Talon or Cropcircles that can last you for years without breaking and just let it get old and lose friction. Unfortunately, this seems to be the only viable option now...


which Lp makes harder nastier returns crop or talon?


Talon is more effective, stranger for pushing like Pushblocker.

CC is more effective for chop blocking, more reversal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:02am
Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:26am
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243


what is using guo? cc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:29am
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243


Her BH set up, brand, OX or sponge, blade ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:46am
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243

She has an attacking style though. Like haruna fukuoka (spelling?) with her pips. Her returns are hits mostly. So she combines unusual returns with a bit of speed behind it and is quite different from a more passive pushblockr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by nachalnik nachalnik wrote:

It's hard for me to say in terms of wins and losses as I had a few serious injuries that sidelined me for months at a time, but playing flat hitters did become much more difficult. The best strategy against the flat hitters now is to keep pushing deep to the left and wait for a relatively high ball to either loop or smash.

Good strategy if you have a good attack.. For those pushblockers like myself who depend on my opponents misses, it has become very difficult.. People make less mistakes and can hit through more blocks with it..



the problem with pushblockers is that 40+ will have a higher bounce with LP before that you had to keep pushing because most pushed balls were lower ,Because that you need lower throw pips like MP used by modern choppers

For my game, the height of the balls is not the issue.. I can keep my returns just as low as with the old ball.. My problem is the lack of spin..

You could try frictionless anti. Although those players also complain about a lack of spin, and their reversal is already much better than lp.

To test your theory, why don't you ask one of the guys who beat you to try a game vs you using an old style ball?


Edited by obesechopper - 12/22/2017 at 11:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nachalnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:52am
CC seems a little crazier then the Talon to me. Often times the ball clearly goes over the table and then just drops on the edge. I'm training a lot with a 2200+ looper and the Cayman+CC combo seems to give him the most trouble. At the same time, this combo gives me the most trouble just trying to control balsa...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 11:56am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243


Her BH set up, brand, OX or sponge, blade ?



OX Lp.brand?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by MydasDiablo MydasDiablo wrote:

Chops from sponged pips clearly have less spin on them, spin variation (typically the float no-spin chop) wins far more points now than chops that see the opponent dump it in the net. 

As a long time user of D.Tecs OX and now Dornenglanz OX, it is safe to say that reversal on blocks is nowhere near what it used to be. I too now win more points by throwing in a no-spin roll off the pips which the opponent loops long, than I do getting them to dump it in the net (which I used to do at will with the old ball). 

I have had to concentrate on training my forehand to be my main weapon and try and force myself to play with that side wherever possible. If you use OX LP then for me you need to be trying to emulate Liu Song at the higher levels, beastly forehand trying to win the point as quickly as possible before they can pin you on your backhand. The top guys in my division will just pin me on my BH and then loop cross court wide enough that I can't get there, my footwork isn't good enough to play Liu Song's inside out forehand from the backhand side to stop them doing it. 

My personal view based on my own experience is that Amateurs will need serious coaching, a lot of practice and be very fit if they are to be successful at a high level being a chopper, more so with the new ball as many more chops come back. For OX LP users, go the Liu Song monster forehand route, change to Anti-Spin (which has much more reversal but requires inverting your angles on blocks compared to LP and that is much easier said than done), or the route I am taking is to continue in matches with LP to maintain our position in the league, but practice with double inverted (concentrating on BH) with a view to changing in 1-2 years when my backhand catches up with my forehand.   

I am sure different people's experiences will vary, these are just my humble thoughts based on mine.

For reference, I play in the top Division at local league level with a 50% or so average. We have a lot of County standard Vets in our league and they just love playing against pips.    

Some good suggestions there, despite how unfortunate they may seem! Many of the anti players state there isn't enough spin on their blocks now, either. So it may not be a viable option, though better than LP for passive reversal. 

Just a bad state of affairs for those players who relied on their LP/anti, when you say "Go develop a monster forehand, too" lol... I don't think most have the coordination or mobility for that! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243


She has an attacking style though. Like haruna fukuoka (spelling?) with her pips. Her returns are hits mostly. So she combines unusual returns with a bit of speed behind it and is quite different from a more passive pushblockr.



anyone can report about sp players and what sp are they using?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243


Her BH set up, brand, OX or sponge, blade ?


OX Lp.brand?


What is she using there ?
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

You could try frictionless anti. Although those players also complain about a lack of spin, and their reversal is already much better than lp.

To test your theory, why don't you ask one of the guys who beat you to try a game vs you using an old style ball?
I have tried frictionless anti.. It's great for blocking but absolutely sucks for pushing aggressively.. Can't do it with anti..

I could try to play those who now beat me with the old ball.. Good idea...
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon OX with removed glue sheet on backhand
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Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1771
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2017 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243

I would not consider that to be pushblocking.. That's a very aggresive use of long pips and not the typical pushblocking game..
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon OX with removed glue sheet on backhand
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