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Did the plastic ball kill the LP pushblocking game

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hunkeelin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 7:08pm
not discrediting you but i am tired of people giving "oh the old time is better". Human evolve. the basketball all stars back in the 70s~80s don't hold a candle to some tier2 player in the current nba. Same goes for table tennis. We can give waldner a magic pill that will decrease his age by 30years and he will still get destroyed. Meta changes, game changes and humans get better and better. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

not discrediting you but i am tired of people giving "oh the old time is better". Human evolve. the basketball all stars back in the 70s~80s don't hold a candle to some tier2 player in the current nba. Same goes for table tennis. We can give waldner a magic pill that will decrease his age by 30years and he will still get destroyed. Meta changes, game changes and humans get better and better. 


lucky that berdnt is not around here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

Then you will have to adapt to the new ball like every other player. I was spin orientated before the ball change. The ball change hurt my game but I have to adapt. Your opponent's spin also decrease too it's a two way thing; maybe it's time to improve the accurcy on your FH/BH smashes to your arsenal. I've seen you miss lots of high opportunity shots like that in your recent vids; grab those points and you will be back on track.

I think the point is with "having to adapt" meaning certain styles are no longer viable as they once were. Not everyone wants to take on an aggressive looper/hitter style, and not everyone is physically capable of doing so very well. They employed the at the table defense and, yes, relied on equipment to perform that game. Just the same as a power looper relies on their ultra grippy high-tech inverted rubber to grip and fling the ball at high speeds/spin. 

Imagine if they invented a "maximum friction" rule for inverted rubbers. And all of a sudden the power loopers are complaining their loops have no spin anymore. Would we tell them to just deal with it? Or you might expect some outrage amongst the loopers... LP/anti blocker styles are more limited in playerbase, so the outcry is less but still there. Even so, the defenders whine about the new ball as well. So the two styles seem to both be in agreement which widens the extent of malcontents. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:


That's such a spot-on way to put it.

In your opinion, does this lend to a player like Harimoto? 

My opinion is that he's still a truly special talent, but I also think he's the first apparent product of the plastic ball generation. I don't think he would be able to have such long standing success as he has had if we still used the older balls. The amount of guile and craft required to be competitive at that level has lowered a good bit it seems, and so he's allowed to play on and reach consistent heights. 

With the old ball, someone as young as him shows up and beats a few top men, and then everyone knows which tactics to employ against him for a while and he stops getting those wins until he matures. With this ball, it's like the ability to employ the necessary steps to neutralize him has gone way down. So even though he's still a child, he consistently hangs with adult and experienced players. 

Maybe that's a conversation for another thread, but I think it's a good one nonetheless. 

I'm not really sure, because most top players don't use a lot of the guile and craft. At least their game is not based around it. I'm sure they all have tricks to use and weird plays to bring out against the right players. But the bang and spin game seems to have been at the top for a good long while. Wang Liqin's forehand cannon, Ryu SeuMing (sp?), and the like. I guess you could argue Werner Schlager 2003 was a craftsman, but he also had the basic power shots when needed. 

Harimoto does seem to be a special talent though, as there aren't many like him so far! Maybe truls moregard? Who from the chinese team is really breaking through? 

More to the question at hand -- is the new ball what's allowing them to play at a high level? I don't know! I suspect Harimoto would be playing at a high level regardless of the ball used. There was no real surge of existing pros that shot up the ranks due to the new ball. Hitters and SP players? People thought they'd be reigning champs, though it has not been the case. 

Though in truth I don't even like to compare pros to amateurs since the game styles are so different. Especially for the LP/anti blockers. I think players under 2000 and much lower don't notice a difference, or if they do... it won't really affect their game one way or the other. They'll say it does! I'd contend it's nothing a bit of practice couldn't overcome. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 8:27am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I'm not really sure, because most top players don't use a lot of the guile and craft. At least their game is not based around it. 
 
What ? the service, receipt and short game is ALL guile and craft, and without that a player is not world class at all, just a selection of powerful strokes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bogeyhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Jiangshan Guo plays a similar style at a high level, here she won the junior womens at the US Open, she also beat zhang kai (2650) in the U2700. She plays primarily defense with long pips, and sometimes forehand attacking.

https://www.ustream.tv/recorded/110843243


I would not consider that to be pushblocking.. That's a very aggresive use of long pips and not the typical pushblocking game..


Wow , I like that style , I think it’s time to change

I agree. The era of pure chopping/defending is long gone. The modern defender is now following that path. 
the chop defend is just not good enough with new balls. Wu Yang or Seo HW performance's have dropped.
Mine dropped too. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:29am
Over time some players, but not all, have learned how to play against LP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 1:28pm
Ok, this is lightly off-topic so hopefully I won't be flamed too much for postingWink.
Here's a video from a Dec17 Junior (<18) tournament in England involving classic defender vs attacker.
How do you think the plastic ball affected play? Also what would be their USATT ratingSmile?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvfHVWR27vc&t=37s

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I'm not really sure, because most top players don't use a lot of the guile and craft. At least their game is not based around it. 
 
What ? the service, receipt and short game is ALL guile and craft, and without that a player is not world class at all, just a selection of powerful strokes.

With that mindset, you could say any stroke was using guile. A top spin only had X amount of spin when opponent that it had Y etc. 

I don't think most people saying guile/craft are referring to those points though. Is the short game really guile, or just mastered basics? A player can use the craft in any stroke. 
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