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Dimitrij Ovtcharov - The Road to the TOP

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    Posted: 01/06/2018 at 12:17pm


Edited by GECA - 01/06/2018 at 12:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2018 at 12:58pm
Well done GECA I heard the road to the top is better than fighting to stay there. I still wonder what will the reaction be from associations around the world: send more top players seems to be the consensual bet. If that reveals true then the change in the ranking system will be a success for the sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2018 at 1:42pm
According to the available records, Dima and Ma Long have met 17 times. 

Ma Long has defeated Dima EVERY SINGLE TIME!



FdT.


Edited by Fulanodetal - 01/06/2018 at 8:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2018 at 2:43pm
Yes, the road that conveniently had a lot of detours around the Chinese players, though not intentional.

Edited by rocketman222 - 01/06/2018 at 2:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chicobo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2018 at 9:39pm
To expand on what rocketman222 said with some statistics. There were 3 tournaments that both Ma Long and Ovtcharov both participated in. Those were:

1) Qatar Open where Ma Long won
2) World Cup where Ovtcharov won (with TB's spectacular wins vs CNT) and
3) China Open where Ovtcharov won (we'll leave an asterisk next to that one but I would say CNT shot themselves in the foot here)

I'm iffy on whether DO is greater than FZD, but given ML's meager participation in ITTF tournaments in 2017 and the above results, DO deserves a higher WR when looking at just the 2017 season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2018 at 11:42pm
Ma Long graduated last year and became a dad. I think that might explain to some extent his absence for the second half of 2017. I just read he was complaining from some injuries, however I can't verify.

The new ITTF rules concerning ranking is a bit arbitrary although I don't disagree with it 100%. Olympic Gold Medal and other top achievements should be recognized.

Yes Dima had a great year. Perhaps he should be #1 for 2017.

But look at the record....even though they seem like friends, you gotta think Ma Long is a big thorn on Dimas side...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTmu0sSZgDc        2009 Yokohama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cozAWC_DMQo    2009 Danish Open
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkoocYnH1pc       2009 China Grand Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX158E4UikM         2010 German Open , Berlin, GER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7YLehvZBs            2012 Liebherr WTTTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X7_hpeiTWA       2012 London Olympics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ0EJqR4h0k         2013 Qatar Open
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK-IOwuuWB4     2013 China Open
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwBXhuOTIX0       2014 ZEN NOH, Japan WTTC 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfdmHMtaEFg       2014 China Super League
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5be9Ygp1gY        2015, Portugal ITTF Grand Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qXv5LCylSk          2015 Liehberr MWC
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0rTCnO4-Lg      2015  Sweden  MWC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogiPZwOipNY       2015 German Open
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHqSsGFCJOY       2016 Qatar Open

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2018 at 11:49pm
At this point ITTF no. 1 doesn't mean too much until we get active participation down the road.

Right now, ITTF no. 1 does not equate to best player in the world. Ma Long is widely considered to be either the best or 2nd best (behind fzd). I acknowledge that Dima had a great year, but everyone saw what FZD did to him at the grand finals.

And if you look at the record:
0-17 vs Ma Long
1-3 vs FZD
1-6 vs Xu Xin
this bears out that while he's Europe's best and a very very good player, he's not the best in the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 12:03am
Something happened in his mind and he might have reached a level up in mental strength. It will be harder to beat him this year. As written above though, what fzd did to him was impressive but Dima at that point was probably exhausted and mentally empty after such a crazy year. I am maybe finding excuses and possibly the gap is still big but I am not sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 4:32am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

At this point ITTF no. 1 doesn't mean too much until we get active participation down the road.

Right now, ITTF no. 1 does not equate to best player in the world. Ma Long is widely considered to be either the best or 2nd best (behind fzd). I acknowledge that Dima had a great year, but everyone saw what FZD did to him at the grand finals.

And if you look at the record:
0-17 vs Ma Long
1-3 vs FZD
1-6 vs Xu Xin
this bears out that while he's Europe's best and a very very good player, he's not the best in the world.


How many of those matches were in 2017?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 4:36am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

Ma Long graduated last year and became a dad. I think that might explain to some extent his absence for the second half of 2017. I just read he was complaining from some injuries, however I can't verify.

The new ITTF rules concerning ranking is a bit arbitrary although I don't disagree with it 100%. Olympic Gold Medal and other top achievements should be recognized.

Yes Dima had a great year. Perhaps he should be #1 for 2017.

But look at the record....even though they seem like friends, you gotta think Ma Long is a big thorn on Dimas side...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTmu0sSZgDc        2009 Yokohama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cozAWC_DMQo    2009 Danish Open
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkoocYnH1pc       2009 China Grand Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX158E4UikM         2010 German Open , Berlin, GER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7YLehvZBs            2012 Liebherr WTTTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X7_hpeiTWA       2012 London Olympics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ0EJqR4h0k         2013 Qatar Open
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK-IOwuuWB4     2013 China Open
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwBXhuOTIX0       2014 ZEN NOH, Japan WTTC 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfdmHMtaEFg       2014 China Super League
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5be9Ygp1gY        2015, Portugal ITTF Grand Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qXv5LCylSk          2015 Liehberr MWC
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0rTCnO4-Lg      2015  Sweden  MWC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogiPZwOipNY       2015 German Open
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHqSsGFCJOY       2016 Qatar Open

FdT


Timo hadn't beaten Ma Long since 2010. Ma Long and Dima didn't play in 2017.

Dima went 1-1 with FZD and 1-0 with LGY. The historical records are interesting but enough stuff played out over the last 6 months of 2017 that there was no reason to believe that Dima had zero chance vs Ma Long in that period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 4:42am
Yeah, the ITTF ranking system is utter nonsense. Shouldn't be taken seriously
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Yeah, the ITTF ranking system is utter nonsense. Shouldn't be taken seriously
============
I agree with you 100%.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 10:38am
"Dima went 1-1 with FZD and 1-0 with LGY. The historical records are interesting but enough stuff played out over the last 6 months of 2017 that there was no reason to believe that Dima had zero chance vs Ma Long in that period."

It is of course unfortunate that Ma Long has not played Dima last year. To be fair, Dima did have a great last year, and I believe one of his last games against Ma Long was pretty close at 4 games to 3.

The record shows that Ma Longs dominance over Dima is complete. 17-0.

I will have to see Dima beat Ma Long not once, maybe 3 times in a row to know somethings up. I don't see that happening. Remember they are only one year apart in age as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">"Dima went 1-1 with FZD and 1-0 with LGY. The historical records are interesting but enough stuff played out over the last 6 months of 2017 that there was no reason to believe that Dima had zero chance vs Ma Long in that period."</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">It is of course unfortunate that Ma Long has not played Dima last year. To be fair, Dima did have a great last year, and I believe one of his last games against Ma Long was pretty close at 4 games to 3.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">The record shows that Ma Longs dominance over Dima is complete. 17-0.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">I will have to see Dima beat Ma Long not once, maybe 3 times in a row to know somethings up. I don't see that happening. Remember they are only one year apart in age as well.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


I agree with you. My point is that you would have said similar things about Timo playing Ma Long as well this year and used the excuse that Timo had those wins when Ma Long was younger. So as damning as the record is, given that Ma Long lost to someone that Dima beat consistently and Dima beat two ther top CNT last Year, he did his job. Ma Long now has to do his.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 11:21am
is Rating Central dying? I don't see the recent FZD-Dima game (German Open 2017).  The tournament is still not rated after almost 2 months.

Still, a few missing tournaments should not make much difference.  Here are the real standings:
Rank  Rating  Name  Country  Last  Played
1  3191±79  Ma,  Long  CHN  2017-06-20
2  3046±67  Fan,  Zhendong  CHN  2017-09-15
3  2991±76  Yan,  An  CHN  2017-09-19
4  2988±77  Xu,  Xin  CHN  2017-06-20
5  2978±93  Shang,  Kun  CHN  2017-01-17
6  2974±62  Mizutani,  Jun  JPN  2017-12-01
7  2972±60  Lin,  Gaoyuan  CHN  2017-09-19
8  2954±75  Fang,  Bo  CHN  2017-09-19
9  2917±60  Ovtcharov,  Dimitrij  GER  2017-12-01
10  2911±77  Zhang,  Jike  CHN  2017-06-20
11  2881±61  Lee,  Sang  Su  KOR  2017-09-15
11  2881±53  Boll,  Timo  GER  2017-12-21

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

 is Ratings Central dying? 
========================
Ratings Central stopped carrying ITTF sanctioned events 3 1/2 months ago.

ITTF and USATT have stable source of income, but not Ratings Central.
My guess is that that is the problem.
Carrying ITTF events need work, RC can not do that work for free forever.
Ratings Central is dead when it comes to updating ITTF sanctioned events.
=================

Here is that old thread about Ratings Central.


Edited by skip3119 - 01/07/2018 at 1:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 12:58pm
I think the new ITTF system is a good idea since a similar approach works in tennis. BUT an alternative ranking system that is statistically valid must ALSO exist and be financed.  ITTF could spend $500K/year (a wild guess) on Rating Central and force local federations to use it.

Of course, if RC is promoted then nobody will appreciate the garbage rankings the new system spits out Smile .  So, RC must die Cry


Edited by Dream1700 - 01/07/2018 at 12:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 2:05pm
Do tennis players play often in leagues like table tennis players?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinchan1506217 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2018 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Do tennis players play often in leagues like table tennis players?
If you mean something like T2APAC or Champion's league which is not a part of an umbrella organization, no because ATP and WTA players have so many world tour tournaments to play in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2018 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by shinchan1506217 shinchan1506217 wrote:

Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Do tennis players play often in leagues like table tennis players?
If you mean something like T2APAC or Champion's league which is not a part of an umbrella organization, no because ATP and WTA players have so many world tour tournaments to play in.

Right.  I mean, this type of rating system would work if the ITTF was the only game in town.  But most table tennis players make their money from leagues, and they don't have to sit on a plane for 12 hours before playing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GECA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Well done GECA I heard the road to the top is better than fighting to stay there. I still wonder what will the reaction be from associations around the world: send more top players seems to be the consensual bet. If that reveals true then the change in the ranking system will be a success for the sport.

Thanks,it's a video made by me for ITTF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chicobo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 6:12pm
I personally like the new system but I feel the 'drawbacks' that are the cause of criticism are valid.

What I would have liked to have seen is to have the new system be used to differentiate pro by level ranks such as Rank A (top 10 players), Rank B (#10 - #30), Rank C (#40 - #70WR). And then within each rank, have he players be sorted out with the old system. This way, it achieves what both sides want - more participation in ITTF majors (I definitely want to see Ma Long play more often) while retaining the subjective "skill" factor that people like by having more definitive player vs player records.
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