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Which Long Pips Rubber ? |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hello,
Remember me ? .... the OP So, out of sheer frustration, I ripped the Pogo LP, off the blade, and re-glued it..... and guess what - I had an extensive play-session yesterday, and no more weird or absurd behaviour... Whether it was just psychological, or whether there truly was something wrong with my setup - I can't say. It just played, like how one would expect an LP to play... No more ball dropping dead onto the table, after contact, or netting of balls, 99% of the time... Ofcourse, it was not all peachy, and I didn't become an over-night LP expert, but I could keep the ball in play, for most parts... But now, whenever I lost a point, I could confidently attribute to lack of know-how, and technique..Nothing bewildering or absurd... Standard LP issues, which I know, with practice, can be over-come... My pushes, chopping (on and off the table), ball placement, although far.. far from perfect were much better... Hell, I even managed to hit a few against back-spin... Even managed to get the ball to wobble mid-air, on several occasions.. However, I need some help in troubleshooting the following : -
All-in-all, it was progress, and rather encouraging...But, I'd like some input/suggestions on the above points... Thanks...
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IanMcg
Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2011 Location: Somehere Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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do you peel off old glue? If you don't, glue buildup can change ball feeling and playing characteristics slightly.
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Yes... ofcourse... I used water-based glue, which I peeled-off thoroughly, after which I used some very very light sandpaper...
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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You just need to watch videos of long pips techniques, then imitate them. Lots of those links in one place at North Little Rock Table Tennis Group timeline page on Facebook. |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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What blade are you using?? The blade has a lot to do with the trajectory on your blocks. When blocking at or behind the table against a powerful loop, you may need to close the angle a little bit while if you block the rising ball off the bounce, you should be able to block at 90 degrees. I have used medium fast balsa blades for many years now as I did not like the trajectory with other types of wood cores. The blades speed is also critical for trajectory.. Slower blades tend to have higher trajectory while faster blades have lower trajectory.
Try to get video footage of your practice sessions and I will be able to provide some input on what is the cause of the issues..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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I have a Donic Defplay Senso 3
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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benfb: Edited by skip3119 - 03/30/2018 at 12:32pm |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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That would explain the higher trajectory.. Slower blade = higher trajectory.. Maybe you should try the pips on a faster blade.. I got best results on ALL+ to OFF- blades.. I was never satisfied with the results on slower than ALL+ blades.
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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two videos shall help Side Swipe; left-to-right or right-to-left is depending on the incoming side spin; you cannot blindfoldedly swipe the ball ; btw, I find out that Giant Dragon Talon is good for side swipe.
Edited by Egghead - 03/30/2018 at 3:57pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi Egghead,
Thanks for the videos... I did try the side-swipe technique, and managed to hit them a couple of times... Don't know whether they were flukes or whether it was the technique... Yesterday, I got totally CREAMED by 2 players, who play at my level... Now, I don't find it difficult to keep the ball in play.. Now, the real challenge is to put EFFECTIVE balls... I noticed, that both the above players, gave me light-to-heavy loops/top-spins. . Even when I did manage to return (which was not too often), my returns seemed to be empty. The players had little or no trouble, no matter, how I returned...Both players, pushed very little.. I even twiddled to generate spin, but it did not work ..One player, actually commented that now he found it easier to play against me (using LPs), as compared to when I was using inverted... Which is true, cause, with the inverted, I would typically win 5 out of 7 games against him. One thing I've realised about my game is, ever since I've started using LPs, I have started backing away from the table, and TRYING to chop the ball, especially against loops/top-spins, and fast, long serves... However, I'm pretty sure, I don't chop with an open-face blade, and vertical action. So, although the balls lands on the other side, I'm not sure with what effectiveness.. Another thing - Now with the LPs on the BH, I'm not playing as much on my FH... Even with balls played plumb to the FH, I now tend to crab, and play on my BH... Blocking/returning top-spins EFFECTIVELY, is a major pain-point. Most of the blocks shot-off long, if I block with an open-face (thinking that I would get reversal), or land into the net, if I keep the face shut, even a bit. I'm now winning consistently against players below my level. However, most players at my level or above, now (me with LP) find it easier than ever to thrash me. |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Any chance you could post some videos of you playing? It's hard to tell much from just he verbal description.
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Yes, I understand, and I tried through my phone (I don't have a camera)... The issue is, the club where I play, does not permit phones in the playing area... However, I will still try, perhaps, take the phone without the SIM card, or something like that... I will have to seek permission from the club-manager
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bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
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whats the diffrence between light cured and UV cured? |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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As I said before, Pogo is not a rubber with a huge disturbing effect.. No reversal to speak off.. In my opinion, Pogo is a good rubber to LEARN to play with long pips to get the right technique to keep the ball low and to return serves etc. Once the technique is solid, it is a good idea to go to rubbers like Talon or DTecs as they produce a lot of reversal and bother opponents but are much harder to use than Pogo. I have Pogo on my racket that I use against spinless players as Pogo gives me great control against no spin shots. It is not as good at blocking like DtecS or Talon but on a slow blade, I have never had issues blocking with it.. Block is usually dead and good technique is required to keep the blocks low.. Again, this is not in any way a disrupting rubber, just a high control long pips for all types of shots.. You can hit with pogo, you can block and push with it etc...
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Actually, treated rubbers are illegal. There is a rule stating that the rubber may not be treated. However, looking at the wording of the actual rule, if a rubber loses friction naturally (i.e. playing outdoors TT) there really is nothing in the rules that would prevent use of such rubber as long as it is still uniform and undamaged. In Europe, they try to enforce a rule that does not exist.. They have not tried to do it in the USA yet. Rubbers are required to have a minimum amount of friction when they are manufactured. This means, any "new" rubber must meet that criteria from the factory. This is a REGULATION on manufacturers. If they are caught selling rubbers below the minimum friction level, they can get in trouble with the ITTF and probably will lose authorization of such rubbers. The only time that a low friction rubber is legal if it loses it's friction due to USE!
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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I've had limited success hitting with pogo.. However, success at blocking is almost 0%.. If I keep the blade face open, it shoots off long.. If I close it, even a bit, it goes into the net... Not that I am relying on reversal, but yes, it too seems limited... Generating spin with chopping is weird.. Sometimes, it does, sometimes it does not.. I guess, it depends where on the blade, it contact the ball, while chopping... Even side swiping (Left to right) seems difficult... But one thing I must say - I can generate some mid-air wobble (and then some more) with this rubber.. However, it does not seem to bother most players...
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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I block with exactly 90 degrees blade angle off the bounce.. Open will go long and closed will go into the net.. Reversal is almost not existent with Pogo. It produces a lot of floating returns with little to no spin. Like I said, it is a great rubber to learn playing with long pips.. A video of your practice sessions would be very helpful.. I would be able to tell what is wrong.. I can block fairly well with Pogo but my blade is quite different from yours, so it's hard to compare. Pogo is one of the rubbers that makes me fell like I can't miss.. It does not bother opponents but I feel extreme control with the rubber.. Especially for service return, the rubber is very insensitive to incoming spin on my blade..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Did any one try Sauer Tröger Hellfire? Is it on par with D-Grass, or GD?
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Hellfire is much slower than DtecS. It has more control but less reversal and the trajectory of Hellfire is high, while Dtecs is medium low..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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I currently use palio ck531 a which I try and attack with with 0.6mm sponge, I guess hellfire would be better for me
than dtecs to try and attack |
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Something I've noticed, and I don't know if it's something to do with my LP SETUP, or whether it'd technique... If I play REALLY close to the table and keep the blade closeish to me, when playing BH (LP side) then I endup wining more points... Even blocking see.s to be better. Something to do my magnetic personality?
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Try to learn to cut / roll the ball barely clean the net. The point is to have the ball not going forward / bouncing high.
You need to have a training partner to correct / learn both techniques.
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I just learned by watching videos, over and over until I understood what they were doing. |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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I have noticed that my results with LP on BH are better when i try to be aggressive with the LP side, whenever possible. That means for my game maybe about 30% of the time. Relying on passive blocks only is just an easy pray for any reasonable opponent.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi,
I've been watching videos too... over-and-over again, a lot of times, in slow-mo... However, when I replicate the strokes/techniques, I don't get the desired results... Passive blocking topspins just results in long returns, if I close the angle a bit, it shoots into the net... Same with slow loops - irrespective of whether they're spinny or loose, they either drop straight off the blade, onto the table, or into the net. Now, here's what's baffling me... Last evening, I was playing against someone (who plays at my level), and I lost 2 closely fought games against him. I was about to start the 3, when the player who's Dtecs I tried, walked in. This time he had another spare setup, which he offered me to try... It was an old Joyner-H, a dead Mark V, and a Yasaka Phantom 007ox. Now, with this setup, I won 3 games (and the set). Most of my shot (including the ones I saw in the videos) landed, and that too with the desired results... Infact, my opponent got so frustrated in the 5th, that he just started swinging/slapping blindly at anything, mostly hitting the ball into the net or 50 feet into the air. He lost the last one on 4 or 5. Then, I switched back to my setup; this time, against another player - Same damn issues... Blocks against topspins would go long... Pushes would land on the table, but high, and empty enough, so that the player across the table could easily put it away. I On the FH side - Looping is superb with the Vega Euro + Defplay V3... Very spinny, and with good curve...Although, there's not so much pace. I still find it pretty bouncy. Passive blocks, once again, shoot off long, almost always... .However, I've realised, that countering top-spins/loops, is a lot easier, and almost always, lands on the table.. I never had issues blocking with inverted rubbers.. Infact, passive blocking with my HN3 was a effortless.. Quite honestly, I can't seem to understand whats going on, and/or where I'm going so wrong... Players (even a level or 2 under me) are having a complete field-day, playing me. I can't keep self-doubting, and blaming it all on my technique .... Maybe the pogo is good LP for beginners... Maybe the Defplay Senso V3 is a good blade.. But, I am beginning to thing that the Pogo + Defplay + Xiom Vega Europe = DISASTER I have another blade (XVT Blasa Hinoki carbon, LP (Dawei 388D-1), and inverted (Focus Snipe 3), which I had ordered, along with the above... I'm wondering if I should try another combo. |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I don't play with long pips, but I spend a lot of time playing against LP, and I've even tough some people how to use them. So this is my two cents worth of advice:
First, the style of play you use is going to depend a lot upon your choice of rubber and your personality. In my club, for example, we've got a couple of people that have LP with a modest amount of friction. Their defense isn't as good (harder to block strong loops), but they can attack more and create more aggressive situations. At the other extreme, we've got the guy I mentioned early in this thread with the illegal frictionless LP. Interestingly, he's doesn't play the pushblocker style (which is what I usually association with frictionless LP), but uses a mix of true off-the-table chopping with punches from near the table. Then we've got another guy with sort of "average" LP and he does a lot of chop blocks near the table and also some aggressive kill shots (hard to make, even hard to return). So my advice is that if some strokes aren't working for you, then drop them (unless you want to switch rubbers or style). Experiment with lots of stuff and see what works for you. While leads to my next point. I've always felt that LP play requires a better "feel" for the ball than looping. You should spend a lot of time just hitting variety of shots. Ideal would be a practice partner that can keep putting the ball back with heavy top spin, light top spin, dead, and push, while you test out various crazy shots. Perhaps a robot would work too. As for the part about becoming over-dependent on the LP. That's a common problem; it's basically a crutch because the LP rubber can be more forgiving in the lack of skill in reading spin. Even so, it's not wise. For you, the choice to use your LP or smooth side (when you have that choice) should be a tactical decision based on what you think will cause the most problems for your opponent. Doing this right is a matter of self-discipline. Good luck.
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kakapo
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2013 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 3429 |
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Indeed, a robot is very useful.
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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Thanks BenFB
So, here's what - Based on my play-style, when I was using regular inverted rubbers, I don't think I fall into any conventional category per se.. I do push (over and away from the table), and I do block, but I don't think I consider myself to be a push/blocker. I do chop (over and away from the table), but I don't think I'm a chopper - I will let it rip, when I see a CLEAR opportunity. On the FH, I will top-spin/loop, with a lot of spin, when I see a CLEAR opportunity to do so. However, due to issues with my elbow, shoulder, and various aches and pains, I've kind of drawn myself into a shell, scared to hit the big shots, and now not doing so, more out of habit (Which I now want to break) On my back-hand, I want to rely most on the ability to control the ball (place it where-ever I want to), spin (chop/push on and away from the table), and whack the ball away, when a CLEAR/PLUM opportunity to do so arises. On the FH-side - I'd be a tad more aggressive. Think of me as a right-handed boxer - using the left-hand (BH in TT) to jab-jab-jab, and then deliver the know-out with the right (FH in TT)
This would mean eliminating almost all my BH
No access to a robot, and I cannot afford to buy one. I'm trying to convince a fellow club-member to practice with me, regularly.
Yes, the LP has become a crutch of sorts. I've started playing with it, due to several issues (read above). I'm even trying to twiddle, with very limited success.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Ultimately, you might want to try some different BH rubbers. LP with different amount of friction, or short pips, or even anti. However, I would hesitate to do too much equipment change until you've spent some time learning the basics of your current setup. How long have you been working with this? Changing from smooth to LP is a pretty long process for most people.
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 516 |
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"On my back-hand, I want to rely most on the ability to control the ball (place it where-ever I want to), spin (chop/push on and away from the table), and whack the ball away, when a CLEAR/PLUM opportunity to do so arises. On the FH-side - I'd be a tad more aggressive. Think of me as a right-handed boxer - using the left-hand (BH in TT) to jab-jab-jab, and then deliver the know-out with the right (FH in TT)"
Based on this, I would recommend trying Dr Evil. It's technically a SP rubber that is approved for usatt hardbat competition. It has some LP like properties when blocking against loop and is an excellent chopping rubber. high balls can be attacked easily. This is a good rubber to try on your way to finding out whether you really want to end up with LP because its very easy to play with. It's a $10 rubber, so cheap to try. I have it on a blade to do some chopping for fun every so often. |
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