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Backhand shadow swing

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maurice101 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/02/2018 at 10:18pm
Any suggestions for improvements in my backhand shadow stroke? I have tried to incorporate my body in the swing and have a more stable start position. Also tried to have the bat closed on the whip pattern. I see I did this on the first 2 swings but not in the next swings.

https://youtu.be/VmkUTk1sAFw


Edited by maurice101 - 04/02/2018 at 10:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2018 at 10:44pm
Your legs are not supporting your stroke. Think about how your core powers your forehand. You can use your core with your backhand as well.

If we divide the stroke into 2 parts:

1) Tip to hip - Here your right knee can go forward a little with your right shoulder.

2) Throw the Frisbee - Here your left knee goes a little. Keep your left hand forward here so you don't unravel as you throw the Frisbee. 

Here is Liu Guoliang working with Ma Long: https://youtu.be/Ak1dB2wi2SE


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 12:23am
hello maurice101, 

1)watch timo boll there at 10 seconds in slow motion 

2)observe in the back swing how he crouches and bends over at the same time in the back swing (there are better videos of him showing that).

3) in the swing, the legs push up and the upper body rotates back around the hips axle (coming back from the back swing).

4) while the upper body rotates back, the elbow is thrown forward about 1 foot and THAT IS POWER on top of which you throw your arm then snap forearm and wrist.

But again it all came from the legs, like in the fh but to a lesser extent.

It is a great way to start studying the backhand technique because from there you can build your own and go anywhere you want. 

IMPORTANT NOTE: from further away from the table, that technique is not optimal and the full arm bh becomes better, when we have time though! then it's a different technique and another discussion.

Good luck developing your bh loop, it will be your good friend to setup your fh: remember, Kreanga himself says the fh is everything! coming from the bh loop all time semi god, I take it as cash.



Edited by fatt - 04/03/2018 at 1:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 1:39am
Thanks for your advice. I can see I do not use much rotation from the right shoulder forward and back. I will post a video of a shadow swing against backspin where I feel I do this a bit more like the ma long topspin against backspin video as I start lower.
Yes I see timo does come up more in his body than my stroke using his legs. I do see how the unbending of the forward bow movement is lacking in my shadow stroke.
Internally I do feel like I am using my legs and hips to thrust the arm forward. I think I need more upper movement from unwinding the bow to support the strokes 45 degree path. My hips seem to be moving more forward  than timos hips but maybe this is overdoing things.


Edited by maurice101 - 04/03/2018 at 1:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 1:57am
I assume that is your backhand form for mid-distance? I  would think a backhand closer to the table involves a more compact stroke, eg., shorter follow-thru, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 2:05am
it's all about having all those parts moving together towards a goal. in your video (congratulations on exposing yourself, it takes courage), I can tell you have all (or "almost all" should I say since I am not a pro) components present but they are not working together in harmony, there is not that fluidity you are obviously looking for.
Try to do the exact same shadow practice, but in a gentle jump roping spirit, focusing on fluidity and using the least possible energy to go over a cycle/stroke (in position, back swing, swing, get back in position). Also while shadow practicing the bh in a silent room, try to hear that wind in front of you when you swing the backhand: if you hear it on the right, the fastest speed was not where it should have been -in front of you- when contacting with the ball.
Technique is about achieving something using the least energy in the shortest time and you are on the right path with the right mind sir! BON COURAGE!


Edited by fatt - 04/03/2018 at 2:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 3:06am
Fatt that is a great tip about the wind in the front. I will see if I can get good wind at the hitting zone with least effort. Yep I always am trying too hard on my forehand and backhand. I figure that if I get the form right I will be more relaxed rather than trying to relax. My shoulders are tight which does not help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 6:26am
The stroke is fine. The arm is swinging too fast for you to incorporate other body parts if you s re just learning the stroke. I try to warn people who are learning new strokes not to go for power early in their training as they will just use all the wrong muscles to get it. Using the body comes naturally when you try to slow down the movement of the arm and try to time in some hip rotation.

You may be using more body than people are giving you credit for. It is only obvious if you crouch more.

Edited by NextLevel - 04/03/2018 at 6:28am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 6:51am
Try to shorten your stroke and direct it less sideways like a windscreen wiper and more forwards
Timo Boll ALC 84g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 8:06am
There are probably many things technically correct about that shadow swing.

Yet I am having a difficult time imagining any realistic incoming ball that swing would put back on the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 10:13am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

There are probably many things technically correct about that shadow swing.

Yet I am having a difficult time imagining any realistic incoming ball that swing would put back on the table.

 I know many actually - once you have the swing the rest is about contact point/swing plane.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 10:20am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

There are probably many things technically correct about that shadow swing.

Yet I am having a difficult time imagining any realistic incoming ball that swing would put back on the table.


 I know many actually - once you have the swing the rest is about contact point/swing plane.


Then I look forward to the video when he transitions the shadow swing to a multiball feed or block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 5:05pm
Is this a shadow stroke against topspin or underspin? I imagine topspin.

Also, I assume this is a stroke away from the table? Otherwise, it needs to be much shorter. 

Agreed with others that your legs and waist is wobbly for a stroke. Lean forward, solid stance, and use less of arm. 

Perhaps others could record their shadow stroke videos? That's an interesting idea :) - A thread on shadow stroke videos of myTT members?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 5:49pm
Next level I think you are on the ball (as usual) with your comment You may be using more body than people are giving you credit for. It is only obvious if you crouch more.

If you look at my shoulder it is moving back from the hip moving forward supporting the whip. However I am not rising out of the bow position as my head is staying pretty level so this leads to the comments from people that think I am not using my body in the stroke.

A good coach told me to really focus on the hitting arm shoulder when looking at body movement.

If you look at timos video the shoulder is going back and up as well. This rising movement is really missing from my shoulder movement.

I see this movement of coming out to the bow needs to be added and probably is a more energy efficient way of adding the body movement that moves the shoulder back which is needed in the strokes whip action. So the comment of too much effort in the shadow swing is spot on based on a missing mechanic. So I think I need less hip thrust and more coming out of the bow to move the shoulder back and up.

Adding a component of hip rotation mentioned by another poster would be another way to add more range of the shoulder moving back and with less effort as it is from the core. You can see timo do this too.

I got a bad knee issue but I will try to do a new slower more relaxed shadow swing soon and when I get my robot back from repairs add a robot feed or multi ball.

Much thanks for all the comments from everyone. They really help.






Edited by maurice101 - 04/03/2018 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 6:15pm
I looked at the swing in slow motion and noticed a couple of things.  At the end of the backswing the wrist is really twisted back and the hand is almost directly under the elbow.  To me it looks more like the position setting up for  banana flick rather than a topspin backhand.  

Also the first movement in the forward swing seems to be lifting the elbow up instead of the wrist moving the racket forward.  

To me it seems both of these produce a much more vertical swing plane than you would want against topspin balls.  If the stroke was meant to be against underspin it still has some issues.  The racket does not start low enough.  And the upward movement of the elbow at the start of the swing would change the ball hand alignment at the last second which could lead to erratic contact.

Not sure if these are significant enough to warrant working on a swing change.  Will leave that to more experienced coaches.

Mark - Who coaches great backhands but does not have one himself 


Edited by mjamja - 04/03/2018 at 6:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 6:47pm
Yes I agree with this. I think using multiball the stroke will change to be more forward against block. Just a note though. I got a limited wrist movement that limits the wrist back movement. I think I use the elbow more forward to compensate for this lack of wrist flexibility.


Edited by maurice101 - 04/03/2018 at 6:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by maurice101 maurice101 wrote:

Yes I agree with this.

Maurice, after reading through the thread to this point, if you were to attempt to incorporate all the things you're being told here you would have such a bastardised stroke you would never hit a damn thing.  So much of the advice is contradictory and how do you weigh what is helpful and what is not?  I think you need to work with one high quality coach and ignore everyone else.  If you don't have access to a really well qualified coach, then I suggest picking one or two online coaches - pinskills, brett clarke - and sticking with them.  Assess your swing against theirs and only theirs.

If you need advice on analysing your stroke, you could post a video of your swing alongside a video of the stroke you're trying to follow and ask what differences people see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2018 at 8:42pm
Your wrist looks super flexible in that video! If you want to see a lack of wrist flexibility, check out any of my backhand videos hehe.

I think what you're trying to do is a very advanced topspin stroke. How is your standard backhand? If you've already mastered that and are looking for something more advanced, I feel you're on a good path. I just worry that maybe your regular backhand isn't as developed as it needs to be, so you'll be facing tremendous amounts of inconsistency issues trying to add this to your game.

Good luck! I personally love seeing members post videos. Keep them coming!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 3:22am
I have a flat backhand counterhit, block and the current backhand topspin stroke I am working on. My wrist can only bend back 30 degrees and not 90 degrees. The timing of this stroke is my big issue as I usually go back too soon and mess up the whip. Wait, wait wait I keep telling myself!!! Having the bat closed on the take back so your partner can see the black rubber is the new addition to the stroke and this will take ages to be consistent.

This is my old backhand 6 months ago hitting too hard as usual and bat open on take back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOqHaSzt94


Edited by maurice101 - 04/04/2018 at 3:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 10:59am
After watching your flat counterhit I would suggest you try out a stroke that is somewhat between the strokes in the 2 videos.  Get the racket more closed like in the first video, but do not try to twist it so far back that you need to bring your elbow forward and up.  It would not be the full out ripped pro Bh, but I think you would be more consistent and still able to generate plenty of spin.

Like you I have very limited wrist flexibility.  If I try to get into some of the "pro" racket positions other things get out of alignment and the stroke suffers.  By giving up some of the extreme wrist movement I give up a little speed and spin, but gain consistency.  My wrist eventually got so bad I had to switch to short pips.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 11:07am
Maurice, if you're working with a robot, I would suggest slowing down. You're being extremely violent with the ball. The robot produces an identical shot - perfect for developing better feel. I don't practice with the robot now, but when I did, the goal was to focus on position, start of the swing, timing, finish, and reload. If the balls are coming in too fast, slow them down.

Just my 2 cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 11:50am
I agree with Leshxa. I think you've got a really powerful backhand, but it looks like you're trying to generate speed and spin with force rather than a relaxed, well brushed contact. You look very tight. I think a robot can do that to you since the ball is always the same. If you can, try to slow down the robot and tone back the spin a little.

The balls you're hitting do look very nice, but I find it hard to see you being consistent against a real person. Once again, apologies if I'm wrong. Maybe you do smash those winners in quite consistently in games too :)
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