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FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!

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    Posted: 04/16/2018 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Pushblocker, you want to cheat; no one will stop you, and no one will mind as well; just you shall act like those boosters. May be you have a bad camera, the rubber at the stamp area and the pip heads at the edge are not uniformity.

The bottom line is that we are discussing the test tool and how to apply it here, not the prerequisites. With that, I believe we all assume either one of rules will apply already.



That is the shade of my hand that makes part of the logo area look darker..

Edited by Pushblocker - 04/16/2018 at 11:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Edge area, it is very difficult to cut long pips to make it look picture perfect, all mine look like that, some better some worse. Plus you get dings there too.
I rest my case  Wink


Edited by Egghead - 04/16/2018 at 7:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 6:52pm
Edge area, it is very difficult to cut long pips to make it look picture perfect, all mine look like that, some better some worse. Plus you get dings there too.

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 04/16/2018 at 7:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 4:33pm
Pushblocker, you want to cheat; no one will stop you, and no one will mind as well; just you shall act like those boosters. May be you have a bad camera, the rubber at the stamp area and the pip heads at the edge are not uniformity.

The bottom line is that we are discussing the test tool and how to apply it here, not the prerequisites. With that, I believe we all assume either one of rules will apply already.


Edited by Egghead - 04/16/2018 at 9:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 4:11pm

Those long pips look normal and uniform to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 3:10pm
Do those pips look uniform or not?


 




Edited by Pushblocker - 04/16/2018 at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

 

manika batra pips are not straight and they re dirty its obvious she cant get new one that pkay like the old pip they look altered
Her pips are clearly not uniform and therefore they can be disallowed.. Not arguing that point..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

 

manika batra pips are not straight and they re dirty its obvious she cant get new one that pkay like the old pip they look altered
Don't mind him, he just tried to channel the debate into "rubber uniformity and consistency" Dead

Players can play with dirty and wear off LPs as long as the deviations do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface Wink




Edited by Egghead - 04/17/2018 at 11:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Note:  I am not necessarily disagreeing with Pushblocker's distinction between Rules and Regulations and the absence from the Laws of the Game of any reference to change in playing charaacteristics over the course of time.  However,
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Rules are written in the English language and the sentence of that rule is clear and not ambiguous. It says what it says and not what someone would want it to say.
The clarity of the sentence is not as unambiguous as Pushblocker would have us believe as he himself is failing to state its meaning.  In an earlier post (and consistently throughout) he claimed:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Applicable rules:

<div style="margin: 0px 5px 10px; padding: 5px; border-color: rgb169, 184, 194; border-width: 0px 1px 1px; border-style: solid; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.4em; font-family: "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; : rgb250, 250, 250; color: rgb75, 92, 119;">2.04.07.01 Slight
deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to
accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.
<br style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb75, 92, 119; font-family: "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb75, 92, 119; font-family: "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: rgb75, 92, 119; font-family: "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; : rgb250, 250, 250;">The
word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the
2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there
are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not
even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the
english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not
refer to damage, what does it refer to??</span>


There are two sets of conditions linked by the conjunction "or" in Rule 2.04.07.01:
1.  There are two kinds of slight deviation: continuity of surface, uniformity of colour
2.  There are two kinds of cause for deviation: accidental damage, wear.

"They" refers to both kinds of slight deviation - either deviation in continuity of surface or deviation in uniformity of colour.  Pushblocker only states the first of these, when in fact either can be a factor for disqualifying a rubber.

Plus, "they" refers not only to damage.  It also refers to wear.  So there are in fact four sets of circumstances under which a rubber might be disqualified:
1.  Deviation in continuity of surface caused by damage
2.  Deviation in uniformity of colour caused by damage
3.  Deviation in continuity of surface caused by wear
4.  Deviation in uniformity of colour caused by wear.



I don't disagree..   If a rubber that is worn does not have deviations of any kind and looks uniform, it does not meet the criteria. If I rubber shows no deviations in continuity or color (colour as the british write), this does not apply.. That's the point I have been making in 10+ posts in this thread. If the wear is uniform across the rubber, it is not illegal under the current rules. As I said before, I had several legal professional look at the wording of the rules and all came to the same conclusion.
IF THE SURFACE AND COLOR OF THE RUBBER IS UNIFORM, this rule does not apply. If there are deviations, it can be disallowed.

Deviations in color means that there are certain spots that are darker or lighter than the rest..

Deviations in uniformity means that there are spots with more grip than others.. It could also mean that the wear caused inconsistent spacing between pips etc... Anything that would make the rubber no longer uniform. If a rubber looks just like a new one with uniform wear across it's surface, the rule does not apply.








manika batra pips are not straight and they re dirty its obvious she cant get new one that pkay like the old pip they look altered
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2018 at 7:55am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Note:  I am not necessarily disagreeing with Pushblocker's distinction between Rules and Regulations and the absence from the Laws of the Game of any reference to change in playing charaacteristics over the course of time.  However,
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Rules are written in the English language and the sentence of that rule is clear and not ambiguous. It says what it says and not what someone would want it to say.
The clarity of the sentence is not as unambiguous as Pushblocker would have us believe as he himself is failing to state its meaning.  In an earlier post (and consistently throughout) he claimed:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Applicable rules:

2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to??


There are two sets of conditions linked by the conjunction "or" in Rule 2.04.07.01:
1.  There are two kinds of slight deviation: continuity of surface, uniformity of colour
2.  There are two kinds of cause for deviation: accidental damage, wear.

"They" refers to both kinds of slight deviation - either deviation in continuity of surface or deviation in uniformity of colour.  Pushblocker only states the first of these, when in fact either can be a factor for disqualifying a rubber.

Plus, "they" refers not only to damage.  It also refers to wear.  So there are in fact four sets of circumstances under which a rubber might be disqualified:
1.  Deviation in continuity of surface caused by damage
2.  Deviation in uniformity of colour caused by damage
3.  Deviation in continuity of surface caused by wear
4.  Deviation in uniformity of colour caused by wear.


I don't disagree..   If a rubber that is worn does not have deviations of any kind and looks uniform, it does not meet the criteria. If I rubber shows no deviations in continuity or color (colour as the british write), this does not apply.. That's the point I have been making in 10+ posts in this thread. If the wear is uniform across the rubber, it is not illegal under the current rules. As I said before, I had several legal professional look at the wording of the rules and all came to the same conclusion.
IF THE SURFACE AND COLOR OF THE RUBBER IS UNIFORM, this rule does not apply. If there are deviations, it can be disallowed.

Deviations in color means that there are certain spots that are darker or lighter than the rest..

Deviations in uniformity means that there are spots with more grip than others.. It could also mean that the wear caused inconsistent spacing between pips etc... Anything that would make the rubber no longer uniform. If a rubber looks just like a new one with uniform wear across it's surface, the rule does not apply.



Edited by Pushblocker - 04/16/2018 at 8:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, there are only a few Frictionless long lips players. I play with long pips, don't like the feel of frictionless, too limiting.

May be in your club only LOL
You need to change your style if you want to play with frictionless or treated LPs.


I welcome the challenge, my friction pips vs them, let the games begin.

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 04/16/2018 at 12:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, there are only a few Frictionless long lips players. I play with long pips, don't like the feel of frictionless, too limiting.
May be in your club only LOL
You need to change your style if you want to play with frictionless or treated LPs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 3:32pm
exactly my provocation wanted to get to this.
The first ones who should claim an effective test are regular LP players 
so they can not be attacked on their rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 3:22pm
You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, there are only a few Frictionless long lips players. I play with long pips, don't like the feel of frictionless, too limiting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 2:46pm
FAIRLY USEFUL TESTING DEVICE.



My ultimate opinion is
-- this device meets the purpose perfectly well. It can INDEED indicate those unduly slick pimples in most cases.

PLAYER OUGHT TO UNDERSTAND: It is no matter why the racket fails in the test. The greasy pimples is the player's fault as well as the treated pimples.

Yes, of course, some allowance for mechanical wear of the pimples should be made, and the board slope angle must be reduced a little. (I can offer some more calculations).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 1:21pm
If there was friction control, no one would think that a player uses an irregular lp rubber.
P.S. from the images the return spin is really high
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ittfworld/41274424682/

makes me wonder why a player at that level would play with a rubber that is dirty?
You don't know that the "dirtier" / "wear out" the better ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked
look at the over hang https://www.flickr.com/photos/ittfworld/39529603150/in/photostream/
look at what Confused


Edited by Egghead - 04/15/2018 at 1:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 11:09am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


I don't see any frictionless long pips players playing at the clubs in my area.

How many frictionless lp players are there in clubs you guys frequent ?
It is be'cos you cannot buy frictionless lp in the TT shops. Anyway, 3 guys at my club play with treated LP (non of them are really frictionless LP).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 10:56am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

 

If it is that easy to win with just pushing and blocking, how come there aren't lots of players doing it and winning ?
we are talking about frictionless  LP Embarrassed; Youtube has many Europe local tournaments, and you can see few of the LP players were using treated (~frictionless) LP.


Edited by Egghead - 04/15/2018 at 11:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 10:51am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

Batra has just won thanks to a totally frictionless LP.
Someone still has doubts about whether a test for the attrition is not necessary
NO NO NO, you are wrong. I am 100% her rubber is not frictionless LP. However, I am also 100% sure her LP is not original. Something happened to her rubber Embarrassed


Edited by Egghead - 04/15/2018 at 10:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 10:41am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

Batra has just won thanks to a totally frictionless LP.
Someone still has doubts about whether a test for the attrition is not necessary



That's quite a claim without actual proof. I think you owe Batra an apology.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 10:29am

I don't see any frictionless long pips players playing at the clubs in my area.

How many frictionless lp players are there in clubs you guys frequent ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 5:08am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcLp2sd94N0
this is Roberto Negro best  frictionless player in italy (play antitop frictionless = regular rubber)
<pre ="tw--text tw-ta tw-text-medium" -placeholder="Traduzione" id="tw-target-text" style="text-align: left; height: 72px;" -fulltext="" dir="ltr"><span lang="en">look at how much the forehand uses.
opponent is stoyanov Cool
</span>


Wow, guys like Negro are hard to find.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 4:41am
Batra has just won thanks to a totally frictionless LP.
Someone still has doubts about whether a test for the attrition is not necessary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 3:13am
The typical frictionless player is Dr. neubauer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMSwhYaZ6aY
Do you think that with that technique that mobility would have won many veteran
 world championships without its rubber?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 3:07am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcLp2sd94N0
this is Roberto Negro best  frictionless player in italy (play antitop frictionless = regular rubber)
look at how much the forehand uses.
opponent is stoyanov Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 2:58am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


The friction long pips have more shot options than the frictionless pips.

<pre ="tw--text tw-ta tw-text-small" -placeholder="Traduzione" id="tw-target-text" style="text-align: left; height: 120px;" -fulltext="" dir="ltr"><span lang="en">absolutely yes!
but try to play a frictionless lp player with a regular lp and see if he is able to
 make the shots need to vary the game?
</span><span lang="en">the vast majority of frictionless players without those rubber would fall in different
categories because the frictionless allows you to play almost without taking care of
 the incoming effect, with two shots (block and push) and almost always play the back
side of the table so moving a little.</span>
<span lang="en">the proof that they often only win thanks to the rubber is that they beat players with
 great hits and instead lose with low-level players who play very simply playing balls
without spin or hit quality.
this because the point get it thanks to the rubber that sends back the incoming effect
 but if it does not reach effect they do not have the shots to make the point.</span>
<span lang="en"></span>


If it is that easy to win with just pushing and blocking, how come there aren't lots of players doing it and winning ?


I speak of medium and low levels where most people play.
At high levels these rubber are less effective as the opponent usually knows how to deal 
with them.
to play at good levels with these rubber you need excellent forehand and use it a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 2:38am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

the question is that in Italia and not only in Italia it works like this:
in order to play sanctioned tournaments you must be registered with the f.i.t.e.t.
at the time you sign up, you accept the regulation imposed by the fitet.
If the fitet puts in the regulation that your racket must pass this test, by registering 
you have accepted the test. Alternatively you can play tournaments under other federations but are NOT registered
to I.t.t.f. and therefore are only amateur.
So you must toss the ball up near
 vertical and 16.25 cm and the court size is ittf rules and you have a umpire and
assistant umpire

depends on the level of competition in Italy we have d2-d1-c2-c1-b2-b1-a2-a1
d2-d1-c2 the referee may be requested if there is no one choosing a player who takes
 up his function. from the c1 a then there is the referee.
in all the sanctioned tournaments there is the referee



Edited by andras - 04/15/2018 at 2:41am
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andras View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 2:34am
this is the e-mail of the creator of the bat tester
offredi@finishing.it
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LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2018 at 1:58am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


The friction long pips have more shot options than the frictionless pips.

<pre ="tw--text tw-ta tw-text-small" -placeholder="Traduzione" id="tw-target-text" style="text-align: left; height: 120px;" -fulltext="" dir="ltr"><span lang="en">absolutely yes!
but try to play a frictionless lp player with a regular lp and see if he is able to
 make the shots need to vary the game?
</span><span lang="en">the vast majority of frictionless players without those rubber would fall in different
categories because the frictionless allows you to play almost without taking care of
 the incoming effect, with two shots (block and push) and almost always play the back
side of the table so moving a little.</span>
<span lang="en">the proof that they often only win thanks to the rubber is that they beat players with
 great hits and instead lose with low-level players who play very simply playing balls
without spin or hit quality.
this because the point get it thanks to the rubber that sends back the incoming effect
 but if it does not reach effect they do not have the shots to make the point.</span>
<span lang="en"></span>


If it is that easy to win with just pushing and blocking, how come there aren't lots of players doing it and winning ?
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
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