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handles and wrist motion |
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kakapo
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2013 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 3430 |
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Posted: 05/06/2018 at 2:41am |
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It would be too complicated for big brands I think and of course, the price you would have to pay for the handle only would make you run.
Imagine, there will be no limits: after the length, the width, the shape, it should fit the size of each of your fingers. And also take in account your "grip style". Especially for those like me who have relatively small hands.... I like ST handles because I twiddle and it is easier with those handles. For those who twiddle, the most ergonomic handle is the ST one should I say. Otherwise it is still possible to have the handle of your dream built by experts like Rick Smith for instance or a cabinetmaker. it is so complicated because of the change in grips during play, because of the size of the hands and fingers.......
Edited by kakapo - 05/06/2018 at 2:45am |
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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2334 |
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I agree except with the assertion that it is too complicated for big brands. There have been countless variations of blades and the handles of blades by big brand names and individuals. For example, if you look at the full history of Butterfly blades you'll see many interpretations of the best handle and blade size. It is no accident that the common allround > attack blades are 150x157mm with straight or flared handle. This evolution has come from experiment and practical experience over the last 100 years or so. However, there's always room for someone somewhere to invent something that changes things. |
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Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Forget about ergonomic handles, how about a simple longer handle that may actually be comfortable for players with slightly bigger hands? So far, I've found only 1 blade, the Diamond CQ, that is longer than 100 mm, a silly standardized size that was designed more for weight considerations than playability.
I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S. Edited by richrf - 05/06/2018 at 8:34am |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(richrf) I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S.
Yes. And having checked out the USAPA (USA Pickleball Association) website, and learned that though the sport is only about five decades old, there are 21,000 members of USAPA, thousands of places to play in the U.S., including ten in Tucson (two places to play tt; the Armory Park and Santa Rosa rec centers), as opposed to a few hundred USATT clubs and as of the end of 2017 approximately 9,000 USATT members, which happens to be about a half a thousand people fewer than the population of Safford, Arizona. Pickleball also has an international association which seems to have done a much better job than the ITTF in attracting everyday racquet sport enthusiasts of various levels of play to it. It looks like a lot of fun to play and not at all gimmicky. The serves are legal, you don't need boosters, the fans are polite, and you're not likely to get whupped by some lippy underrated cadet or junior with parents with deep pockets who is gonna end up your cardiologist or neurosurgeon. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Chairman Meow
Super Member Joined: 10/04/2016 Location: Hell, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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I've made an ergonomic handle for myself once. It is definitely not practical for big brands. It was very time consuming and I always had to check the handle against my hand to see what to do next. This resulted in a very comfortable handle. However, if a brand mass produced one that was contoured for individual fingers, it would be very uncomfortable for many because their fingers may not line up with the handle.
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-1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator"
-H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg. -H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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The key is simplicity, as Table Tennis once was. It took me an hour to learn Pickleball, an hour to find an appropriate, reasonable priced paddle ($45) that will last me a very long time, and less than an hour to find numerous places in my immediate area to find very active groups. A new type of handle does nothing. A reasonable, simple handle that is actually long enough for hands would help a lot. I'm tired if trying to find a handle that is longer than the miniature handles and I'm not spending $100 for a blade only to need to extend it with some glue. Edited by richrf - 05/06/2018 at 12:02pm |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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Here in sunny Florida we have a saying about pickleball. Forst stop tennis, second stop table tennis, third stop pickleball, last stop, well, you know where the last stop is.
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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The stop at TT must be a few minutes, just long enough to realize it isn't worth the effort. I just went out with my friend (30 years old) and he was playing Pickleball immediately with no past experience in any racquet sport. That's the difference. |
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Chairman Meow
Super Member Joined: 10/04/2016 Location: Hell, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Sure. Edited by Chairman Meow - 05/06/2018 at 2:13pm |
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-1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator"
-H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg. -H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg |
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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Thinner handles allow relatively more wrist motion at the price of comfort fm2c
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Table tennis is not dead in the US. |
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Baal
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Butterfly made an early ha dle that reminds me of the ones sculpted above. Donic has done some things like that too. Somehow it never caught on. My sense is Soulspin is light years ahead of everybody.
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JediJesseS
Member Joined: 06/02/2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 99 |
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Pickleball has an even worse set of unenforceable service rules as well as obtuse rules governing the non-volley zone close to the net. Not the best comparison.
"The serve must be made with an underhand stroke whereby the server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc." "The paddle head must be below the server’s wrist when it strikes the ball. The highest point of the paddle head cannot be above the highest part of the wrist (where the wrist joint bends)." "Contact with the ball is made below waist level (waist is defined as the navel level)." |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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Yup, Soulspin offers way more than the big commercial brands. Having said that, custom blade makers will give you whatever you want - plus make them pretty. Ross Leidy and I worked together to evolve my "knife handle" design which combines a number of the elements being talked about here: it's 110mm long, fat in the palm, adapted for a pinch between thumb and forefinger, and curved for finger comfort. People always comment on the beauty of Ross's workmanship but often miss the level of evolution of the handle for play. (I think they're so damn pretty people get blinded to other facets.) When I give someone the blade to try, they very, very rarely comment on the design of the handle. Why is that? i suspect it's because it just fits and their attention goes straight to other things. Being so comfortable means not attracting attention. The one, recurring criticism I do get, however, is that it's not made for twiddling. And if that's the case, then the only designs that will ever be in demand are symmetrical ones. |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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I find that Pickleball service rules are much easier to enforce than TT's and v what's more, everyone (including pros) adhere to these rules. There is one pro that goes into gray area but in stop action, he is legal. Most players serve way to the other end of the spectrum, on the conservative side, simply because it is difficult to get any advantage on the serve, though I'm working on it. :-) There beauty of PB is the simplicity of game and equipment. TT can learn something from this model. |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(Baal). Table tennis is not dead in the US.
No, competitive table tennis is not dead in the U.S., but with a USATT membership of around 9,000 in a country whose current population is approximately 325 million, it is hardly healthy. No one knows nor can any sports marketing statistics firm give a reasonably plausible estimate as to how many Americans play table tennis recreationally at least once a week socially. Estimates as to how many Americans engage in the "ping pong" version of the sport are made based on the purchases made on a year to year basis of tt equipment such as tables, rackets, nets and balls. Many folk play tt recreationally with equipment that they did not purchase during any given year that a sports marketing firm gathered statistics, thus they weren't counted and any number derived from any given sports marketing statistical firm can reasonably be suspect. USATT's stated mission is to produce Olympic champions and internationals. They do not give a flying fig about enticing Joe or Jane Recroom to the sport. This despite the indisputable fact that USATT (formerly USTTA) has been operating on a shoestring budget since its inception. Joe and Jane's money is as good as anyone else's, and a lot more Joes and Janes as USATT members, even if they never learn to play like Kanak or Ariel, might do American tt some good and get it more exposure, even in the sunny arid 100+ degree summertime southwest. No, competitive tt in the U.S. is not dead, but it has been spinning its wheels for some time now, and the metaphorical pothole in which it is stuck isn't becoming any smaller.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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But Soulspin offers blades with good composite materials. I still am very happy with my Viscaria wrapped in some grip to make it fit my hand. But I think a lot of people might benefit from asymmetrical handle caps. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Soulspin offers handles in several lengths. Check out their webpage to see all the different handles available. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(Tassie52). At what point did this become a thread about a sport I have no interest in? Would you like to start a thread where the pros and cons of this stupid game can be debated without derailing an actual table tennis topic?
(T52 again). At what point did this become a thread about the death of US TT? Would you like to start a thread where the pros and cons of this contention can be debated without derailing a conversation about handles? (and again) Yup, Soulspin offers way more than the big commercial brands. Having said that, custom blade makers will give you whatever you want - plus make them pretty. Ross Leidy and I worked together to evolve my "knife handle" design which combines a number of the elements being talked about here: it's 110mm long, fat in the palm, adapted for a pinch between thumb and forefinger, and curved for finger comfort. People always comment on the beauty of Ross's workmanship but often miss the level of evolution of the handle for play. (I think they're so damn pretty people get blinded to other facets.) When I give someone the blade to try, they very, very rarely comment on the design of the handle. Why is that? i suspect it's because it just fits and their attention goes straight to other things. Being so comfortable means not attracting attention. The one, recurring criticism I do get, however, is that it's not made for twiddling. And if that's the case, then the only designs that will ever be in demand are symmetrical ones. (Baal). Table tennis is not dead in the US. (Baal again). Butterfly made an early ha dle that reminds me of the ones sculpted above. Donic has done some things like that too. Somehow it never caught on. My sense is Soulspin is light years ahead of everybody. (and again). But Soulspin offers blades with good composite materials. (and once more from Baal). Soulspin offers handles in several lengths. Check out their webpage to see all the different handles available. I still am very happy with my Viscaria wrapped in some grip to make it fit my hand. But I think a lot of people might benefit from asymmetrical handle caps. And last but by no means least.....richrf: I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S. Let it be noted for the record that I am by no means the only contributor to this or any other table tennis forum who has ever derailed a thread. There are many threads, in fact most threads, to which I have no particular interest in posting. Edited by berndt_mann - 05/07/2018 at 8:05am |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Here is the difference Berndt. Each of us has made multiple comments about unconventional handles. Length. Symmetry or lack thereof. Custom blades, home made ergonomic handles, Challenges for large companies to produce this kind of thing. Early attempts by companies to do it. One company that specializes in offering a huge range of handle options for every blade they sell.
Even when there are minor digressions from the topic at hand, each of us has returned to it. There is one person who is an exception to that pattern. You. If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion of handles, what are you doing? Stop it. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Here is a thought I have. I don't believe in fencing people change their grip. In TT we constantly do it. Between FH and BH, during a d after serve. What you describe could interfere a lot with that. That is why most designs have stayed with smooth surfaces. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I stand by the final statement of my last post. As far as handles are concerned, I think fate's idea is interesting, but I'm not sure how such a handle could be marketed. Perhaps fatt might take his idea to the billionaire sharks at the television show Shark Tank, who are far more knowledgeable entrepreneurs than we. If anybody can market fatt's invention, it might not be Butterfly or Donic but possibly Mark Cuban or Kevin O'Leary, aka "Mr. Wonderful".
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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ThePongProfessor
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/17/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1528 |
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A friend sent me this article, which pertains peripherally to this topic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/U52p1r4Ru43EoQOo1
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