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handles and wrist motion

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    Posted: 05/06/2018 at 2:00am
I always wondered why we do not have audacious ergonomic handles, for example shorter ones that would hook all fingers but the index and pinky and offer a roundish main component to hold in the palm, attached to those hooks. In fencing they have ergonomic handles that adapt perfectly to the hand for example. 

The pistol grip was jumping too far away and was forcing new techniques while many subtle tools were lost. We don't count the radical ideas that went nowhere, we need to jump not too far from the game as we know it LOL. I sense what I describe above would just be the same than today but with the ability to more violently throw the paddle with a joint wrist-fingers snaps and the hooks would prevent the blade from flying away. The technique would evolve toward quick very spinny strokes closer to the table because the added speed racket from the final snaps could help grabbing balls better in those more tangential strokes that favor the topsheet and pure brushing.

Why so little research in  handles in our sports? I think a partial explanation is that the wrist high level of complexity plus the subtleties of the game itself deliver a monster problem. What will it be best to achieve everything, the grail anybody?Star Anyway who is going to take the risk to invest years of adapting to a radically new handle when there would be no coaches specialist of it?

Here is literature about wrist complexity in tt and tt handles design: The effect of table tennis racket design on wrist
motion. It 's only 5 years old. The mention of the Brodmann design sealed the deal to me and made the article a bit detached from technique and inclined to fall into pure geeky science which was hip when it was not over my head.

No inventors out there? how about silicone or hard rubber adapters glued around a sh/cp handle that has been cut off Confused? OK just day dreaming here.


Edited by fatt - 05/07/2018 at 9:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 2:41am
It would be too complicated for big brands I think and of course, the price you would have to pay for the handle only would make you run.
Imagine, there will be no limits: after the length, the width, the shape, it should fit the size of each of your fingers. And also take in account your "grip style".
Especially for those like me who have relatively small hands....
I like ST handles because I twiddle and it is easier with those handles.
For those who twiddle, the most ergonomic handle is the ST one should I say.
Otherwise it is still possible to have the handle of your dream built by experts like Rick Smith for instance or a cabinetmaker. it is so complicated because of the change in grips during play, because of the size of the hands and fingers.......


Edited by kakapo - 05/06/2018 at 2:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 5:19am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

It would be too complicated for big brands I think and of course, the price you would have to pay for the handle only would make you run.
Imagine, there will be no limits: after the length, the width, the shape, it should fit the size of each of your fingers. And also take in account your "grip style".
Especially for those like me who have relatively small hands....
I like ST handles because I twiddle and it is easier with those handles.
For those who twiddle, the most ergonomic handle is the ST one should I say.
Otherwise it is still possible to have the handle of your dream built by experts like Rick Smith for instance or a cabinetmaker. it is so complicated because of the change in grips during play, because of the size of the hands and fingers.......


I agree except with the assertion that it is too complicated for big brands. There have been countless variations of blades and the handles of blades by big brand names and individuals. For example, if you look at the full history of Butterfly blades you'll see many interpretations of the best handle and blade size.
It is no accident that the common allround > attack blades are 150x157mm with straight or flared handle. This evolution has come from experiment and practical experience over the last 100 years or so.
However, there's always room for someone somewhere to invent something that changes things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 7:12am
Forget about ergonomic handles, how about a simple longer handle that may actually be comfortable for players with slightly bigger hands? So far, I've found only 1 blade, the Diamond CQ, that is longer than 100 mm, a silly standardized size that was designed more for weight considerations than playability.

I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S.

Edited by richrf - 05/06/2018 at 8:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 10:59am
(richrf)  I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S.

Yes.  And having checked out the USAPA (USA Pickleball Association) website, and learned that though the sport is only about five decades old, there are 21,000 members of USAPA, thousands of places to play in the U.S., including ten in Tucson (two places to play tt; the Armory Park and Santa Rosa rec centers), as opposed to a few hundred USATT clubs and as of the end of 2017 approximately 9,000 USATT members, which happens to be about a half a thousand people fewer than the population of Safford, Arizona.

Pickleball also has an international association which seems to have done a much better job than the ITTF in attracting everyday racquet sport enthusiasts of various levels of play to it.  It looks like a lot of fun to play and not at all gimmicky.  The serves are legal, you don't need boosters, the fans are polite, and you're not likely to get whupped by some lippy underrated cadet or junior with parents with deep pockets who is gonna end up your cardiologist or neurosurgeon.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 11:04am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

No inventors out there? how about silicone or hard rubber adapters glued around a sh/cp handle that has been cut off Confused? OK just day dreaming here.

I've made an ergonomic handle for myself once. It is definitely not practical for big brands. It was very time consuming and I always had to check the handle against my hand to see what to do next. This resulted in a very comfortable handle. However, if a brand mass produced one that was contoured for individual fingers, it would be very uncomfortable for many because their fingers may not line up with the handle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Chairman Meow Chairman Meow wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

No inventors out there? how about silicone or hard rubber adapters glued around a sh/cp handle that has been cut off Confused? OK just day dreaming here.

I've made an ergonomic handle for myself once. It is definitely not practical for big brands. It was very time consuming and I always had to check the handle against my hand to see what to do next. This resulted in a very comfortable handle. However, if a brand mass produced one that was contoured for individual fingers, it would be very uncomfortable for many because their fingers may not line up with the handle.
I agree. I was just imagining that if a design is successful to play the modern game and its requirements, half handles could be printed in different sizes to adapt to existing blade technology. Finding that ideal design is actually the big deal and adapting to all hands after that would be the easy last mile.
Would you share pictures of your design? come on! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 11:59am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(richrf)  I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S.

Yes.  And having checked out the USAPA (USA Pickleball Association) website, and learned that though the sport is only about five decades old, there are 21,000 members of USAPA, thousands of places to play in the U.S., including ten in Tucson (two places to play tt; the Armory Park and Santa Rosa rec centers), as opposed to a few hundred USATT clubs and as of the end of 2017 approximately 9,000 USATT members, which happens to be about a half a thousand people fewer than the population of Safford, Arizona.

Pickleball also has an international association which seems to have done a much better job than the ITTF in attracting everyday racquet sport enthusiasts of various levels of play to it.  It looks like a lot of fun to play and not at all gimmicky.  The serves are legal, you don't need boosters, the fans are polite, and you're not likely to get whupped by some lippy underrated cadet or junior with parents with deep pockets who is gonna end up your cardiologist or neurosurgeon.






The key is simplicity, as Table Tennis once was. It took me an hour to learn Pickleball, an hour to find an appropriate, reasonable priced paddle ($45) that will last me a very long time, and less than an hour to find numerous places in my immediate area to find very active groups.

A new type of handle does nothing. A reasonable, simple handle that is actually long enough for hands would help a lot. I'm tired if trying to find a handle that is longer than the miniature handles and I'm not spending $100 for a blade only to need to extend it with some glue.

Edited by richrf - 05/06/2018 at 12:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 12:01pm
Here in sunny Florida we have a saying about pickleball. Forst stop tennis, second stop table tennis, third stop pickleball, last stop, well, you know where the last stop is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Here in sunny Florida we have a saying about pickleball. Forst stop tennis, second stop table tennis, third stop pickleball, last stop, well, you know where the last stop is.


The stop at TT must be a few minutes, just long enough to realize it isn't worth the effort. I just went out with my friend (30 years old) and he was playing Pickleball immediately with no past experience in any racquet sport. That's the difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Would you share pictures of your design? come on! Tongue
Sure.




Edited by Chairman Meow - 05/06/2018 at 2:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 3:01pm
Thinner handles allow relatively more wrist motion at the price of comfort fm2c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 5:54pm
Thanks, I saw it before, I can tell a slow evolution towards something that works, like in a living thing Clap

In what I'd like to try, the hooks maybe should be longer and go back up towards the head to be able to throw the handle and have it stay in hand anyway. That last bit of acceleration that comes on top of everything else is acting like a sound barrier breaking tip of a whip. No holes, just 2 hooks on the left when watching the FH side for the middle and ring fingers' intermediate phallanges (or at the junction of the their intermediate and proximal ones) and a bit upper on the right for the thumb's proximal one (right hand players). The index may stay on the BH rubber, the pinky does as usual. 

If there's a flaw in design I'd like to feel it in hand.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Forget about ergonomic handles, how about a simple longer handle that may actually be comfortable for players with slightly bigger hands? So far, I've found only 1 blade, the Diamond CQ, that is longer than 100 mm, a silly standardized size that was designed more for weight considerations than playability.

I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S.


Table tennis is not dead in the US.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 7:43pm
Butterfly made an early ha dle that reminds me of the ones sculpted above. Donic has done some things like that too. Somehow it never caught on. My sense is Soulspin is light years ahead of everybody.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JediJesseS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 9:13pm
Pickleball has an even worse set of unenforceable service rules as well as obtuse rules governing the non-volley zone close to the net. Not the best comparison.

"The serve must be made with an underhand stroke whereby the server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc."

"The paddle head must be below the server’s wrist when it strikes the ball. The highest point of the paddle head cannot be above the highest part of the wrist (where the wrist joint bends)."

"Contact with the ball is made below waist level (waist is defined as the navel level)."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Butterfly made an early ha dle that reminds me of the ones sculpted above. Donic has done some things like that too. Somehow it never caught on. My sense is Soulspin is light years ahead of everybody.

Yup, Soulspin offers way more than the big commercial brands.  Having said that, custom blade makers will give you whatever you want - plus make them pretty. Ross Leidy and I worked together to evolve my "knife handle" design which combines a number of the elements being talked about here: it's 110mm long, fat in the palm, adapted for a pinch between thumb and forefinger, and curved for finger comfort.  People always comment on the beauty of Ross's workmanship but often miss the level of evolution of the handle for play.  (I think they're so damn pretty people get blinded to other facets.)  When I give someone the blade to try, they very, very rarely comment on the design of the handle.  Why is that?  i suspect it's because it just fits and their attention goes straight to other things.  Being so comfortable means not attracting attention.  The one, recurring criticism I do get, however, is that it's not made for twiddling.  And if that's the case, then the only designs that will ever be in demand are symmetrical ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by JediJesseS JediJesseS wrote:

Pickleball has an even worse set of unenforceable service rules as well as obtuse rules governing the non-volley zone close to the net. Not the best comparison.

"The serve must be made with an underhand
stroke whereby the server’s arm must be
moving in an upward arc."

"The paddle head must be below the server’s
wrist when it strikes the ball. The highest point
of the paddle head cannot be above the highest part of the wrist (where the wrist joint bends)."

"Contact with the ball is made below waist level
(waist is defined as the navel level)."


I find that Pickleball service rules are much easier to enforce than TT's and v what's more, everyone (including pros) adhere to these rules. There is one pro that goes into gray area but in stop action, he is legal. Most players serve way to the other end of the spectrum, on the conservative side, simply because it is difficult to get any advantage on the serve, though I'm working on it. :-)

There beauty of PB is the simplicity of game and equipment. TT can learn something from this model.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by JediJesseS JediJesseS wrote:

Pickleball has an even worse set of unenforceable service rules as well as obtuse rules governing the non-volley zone close to the net. Not the best comparison.

"The serve must be made with an underhand
stroke whereby the server’s arm must be
moving in an upward arc."

"The paddle head must be below the server’s
wrist when it strikes the ball. The highest point
of the paddle head cannot be above the highest part of the wrist (where the wrist joint bends)."

"Contact with the ball is made below waist level
(waist is defined as the navel level)."


I find that Pickleball service rules are much easier to enforce than TT's and v what's more, everyone (including pros) adhere to these rules. There is one pro that goes into gray area but in stop action, he is legal. Most players serve way to the other end of the spectrum, on the conservative side, simply because it is difficult to get any advantage on the serve, though I'm working on it. :-)

There beauty of PB is the simplicity of game and equipment. TT can learn something from this model.
At what point did this become a thread about a sport I have no interest in?  Would you like to start a thread where the pros and cons of this stupid game can be debated without derailing an actual table tennis topic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/06/2018 at 10:18pm
(Baal). Table tennis is not dead in the US.

No, competitive table tennis is not dead in the U.S., but with a USATT membership of around 9,000 in a country whose current population is approximately 325 million, it is hardly healthy.

No one knows nor can any sports marketing statistics firm give a reasonably plausible estimate as to how many Americans play table tennis recreationally at least once a week socially.  Estimates as to how many Americans engage in the "ping pong" version of the sport are made based on the purchases made on a year to year basis of tt equipment such as tables, rackets, nets and balls.  Many folk play tt recreationally with equipment that they did not purchase during any given year that a sports marketing firm gathered statistics, thus they weren't counted and any number derived from any given sports marketing statistical firm can reasonably be suspect.

USATT's stated mission is to produce Olympic champions and internationals.  They do not give a flying fig about enticing Joe or Jane Recroom to the sport.  This despite the indisputable fact that USATT (formerly USTTA) has been operating on a shoestring budget since its inception.  Joe and Jane's money is as good as anyone else's, and a lot more Joes and Janes as USATT members, even if they never learn to play like Kanak or Ariel, might do American tt some good and get it more exposure, even in the sunny arid 100+ degree summertime southwest.

No, competitive tt in the U.S. is not dead, but it has been spinning its wheels for some time now, and the metaphorical pothole in which it is stuck isn't becoming any smaller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 12:50am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(Baal). Table tennis is not dead in the US.

No, competitive table tennis is not dead in the U.S., but with a USATT membership of around 9,000 in a country whose current population is approximately 325 million, it is hardly healthy.

No one knows nor can any sports marketing statistics firm give a reasonably plausible estimate as to how many Americans play table tennis recreationally at least once a week socially.  Estimates as to how many Americans engage in the "ping pong" version of the sport are made based on the purchases made on a year to year basis of tt equipment such as tables, rackets, nets and balls.  Many folk play tt recreationally with equipment that they did not purchase during any given year that a sports marketing firm gathered statistics, thus they weren't counted and any number derived from any given sports marketing statistical firm can reasonably be suspect.

USATT's stated mission is to produce Olympic champions and internationals.  They do not give a flying fig about enticing Joe or Jane Recroom to the sport.  This despite the indisputable fact that USATT (formerly USTTA) has been operating on a shoestring budget since its inception.  Joe and Jane's money is as good as anyone else's, and a lot more Joes and Janes as USATT members, even if they never learn to play like Kanak or Ariel, might do American tt some good and get it more exposure, even in the sunny arid 100+ degree summertime southwest.

No, competitive tt in the U.S. is not dead, but it has been spinning its wheels for some time now, and the metaphorical pothole in which it is stuck isn't becoming any smaller.
At what point did this become a thread about the death of US TT?  Would you like to start a thread where the pros and cons of this contention can be debated without derailing a conversation about handles?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 1:40am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Butterfly made an early ha dle that reminds me of the ones sculpted above. Donic has done some things like that too. Somehow it never caught on. My sense is Soulspin is light years ahead of everybody.

Yup, Soulspin offers way more than the big commercial brands.  Having said that, custom blade makers will give you whatever you want - plus make them pretty. Ross Leidy and I worked together to evolve my "knife handle" design which combines a number of the elements being talked about here: it's 110mm long, fat in the palm, adapted for a pinch between thumb and forefinger, and curved for finger comfort.  People always comment on the beauty of Ross's workmanship but often miss the level of evolution of the handle for play.  (I think they're so damn pretty people get blinded to other facets.)  When I give someone the blade to try, they very, very rarely comment on the design of the handle.  Why is that?  i suspect it's because it just fits and their attention goes straight to other things.  Being so comfortable means not attracting attention.  The one, recurring criticism I do get, however, is that it's not made for twiddling.  And if that's the case, then the only designs that will ever be in demand are symmetrical ones.


But Soulspin offers blades with good composite materials.

I still am very happy with my Viscaria wrapped in some grip to make it fit my hand. But I think a lot of people might benefit from asymmetrical handle caps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 1:43am
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Forget about ergonomic handles, how about a simple longer handle that may actually be comfortable for players with slightly bigger hands? So far, I've found only 1 blade, the Diamond CQ, that is longer than 100 mm, a silly standardized size that was designed more for weight considerations than playability.

I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S.


Soulspin offers handles in several lengths. Check out their webpage to see all the different handles available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 7:20am
(Tassie52).  At what point did this become a thread about a sport I have no interest in?  Would you like to start a thread where the pros and cons of this stupid game can be debated without derailing an actual table tennis topic?  

(T52 again).  At what point did this become a thread about the death of US TT?  Would you like to start a thread where the pros and cons of this contention can be debated without derailing a conversation about handles?

(and again)  Yup, Soulspin offers way more than the big commercial brands.  Having said that, custom blade makers will give you whatever you want - plus make them pretty. Ross Leidy and I worked together to evolve my "knife handle" design which combines a number of the elements being talked about here: it's 110mm long, fat in the palm, adapted for a pinch between thumb and forefinger, and curved for finger comfort.  People always comment on the beauty of Ross's workmanship but often miss the level of evolution of the handle for play.  (I think they're so damn pretty people get blinded to other facets.)  When I give someone the blade to try, they very, very rarely comment on the design of the handle.  Why is that?  i suspect it's because it just fits and their attention goes straight to other things.  Being so comfortable means not attracting attention.  The one, recurring criticism I do get, however, is that it's not made for twiddling.  And if that's the case, then the only designs that will ever be in demand are symmetrical ones. 

(Baal). Table tennis is not dead in the US.

(Baal again). Butterfly made an early ha dle that reminds me of the ones sculpted above. Donic has done some things like that too. Somehow it never caught on. My sense is Soulspin is light years ahead of everybody.

(and again). But Soulspin offers blades with good composite materials. 

(and once more from Baal). Soulspin offers handles in several lengths. Check out their webpage to see all the different handles available.

I still am very happy with my Viscaria wrapped in some grip to make it fit my hand. But I think a lot of people might benefit from asymmetrical handle caps.

And last but by no means least.....richrf:

I am now involved with a very fast growing sport here in the U.S, called pickleball (a cross between tennis and table tennis) that is simple to learn and play and is an amazing success across the U.S. There were over 2000 competitors in the latest U.S. Open which is just a few years old. I am now more convinced than ever that what killed table tennis in the U.S. was the cost, complexity, and lack of consumer friendliness of the equipment produced by manufacturers who are totally out of touch with the average player in the U.S. 

Let it be noted for the record that I am by no means the only contributor to this or any other table tennis forum who has ever derailed a thread.  There are many threads, in fact most threads, to which I have no particular interest in posting.

  


  


  

 
 



Edited by berndt_mann - 05/07/2018 at 8:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 9:23am
Here is the difference Berndt. Each of us has made multiple comments about unconventional handles. Length. Symmetry or lack thereof. Custom blades, home made ergonomic handles, Challenges for large companies to produce this kind of thing. Early attempts by companies to do it. One company that specializes in offering a huge range of handle options for every blade they sell.

Even when there are minor digressions from the topic at hand, each of us has returned to it. There is one person who is an exception to that pattern. You. If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion of handles, what are you doing?

Stop it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 9:29am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always wondered why we do not have audacious ergonomic handles, for example shorter ones that would hook all fingers but the index and pinky and offer a roundish main component to hold in the palm, attached to those hooks. In fencing they have ergonomic handles that adapt perfectly to the hand for example. 

The pistol grip was jumping too far away and was forcing new techniques while many subtle tools were lost. We don't count the radical ideas that went nowhere, we need to jump not too far from the game as we know it LOL. I sense what I describe above would just be the same than today but with the ability to more violently throw the paddle with a joint wrist-fingers snaps and the hooks would prevent the blade from flying away. The technique would evolve toward quick very spinny strokes closer to the table because the added speed racket from the final snaps could help grabbing balls better in those more tangential strokes that favor the topsheet and pure brushing.

Why so little research in  handles in our sports? I think a partial explanation is that the wrist high level of complexity plus the subtleties of the game itself deliver a monster problem. What will it be best to achieve everything, the grail anybody?Star Anyway who is going to take the risk to invest years of adapting to a radically new handle when there would be no coaches specialist of it?

Here is literature about wrist complexity in tt and tt handles design: The effect of table tennis racket design on wrist
motion. It 's only 5 years old. The mention of the Brodmann design sealed the deal to me and made the article a bit detached from technique and inclined to fall into pure geeky science which was hip when it was not over my head.

No inventors out there? how about silicone or hard rubber adapters glued around a sh/cp handle that has been cut off Confused? OK just day dreaming here.


Here is a thought I have. I don't believe in fencing people change their grip. In TT we constantly do it. Between FH and BH, during a d after serve. What you describe could interfere a lot with that. That is why most designs have stayed with smooth surfaces.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 9:58am
Yes, in my fencing years in middle school the weapon was most of the time pointing towards the same direction so the ergonomic handle was easy to switch to. The same thing in our game will be extremely difficult to achieve or maybe there is a simple hidden solution that will make us slap our fh when it comes out, yes I meant forehead :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/07/2018 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Here is the difference Berndt. Each of us has made multiple comments about unconventional handles. Length. Symmetry or lack thereof. Custom blades, home made ergonomic handles, Challenges for large companies to produce this kind of thing. Early attempts by companies to do it. One company that specializes in offering a huge range of handle options for every blade they sell.

Even when there are minor digressions from the topic at hand, each of us has returned to it. There is one person who is an exception to that pattern. You. If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion of handles, what are you doing?

Stop it.

I stand by the final statement of my last post.  As far as handles are concerned, I think fate's idea is interesting, but I'm not sure how such a handle could be marketed.  Perhaps fatt might take his idea to the billionaire sharks at the television show Shark Tank, who are far more knowledgeable entrepreneurs than we.

If anybody can market fatt's invention, it might not be Butterfly or Donic but possibly Mark Cuban or Kevin O'Leary, aka "Mr. Wonderful".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 12:06pm
A friend sent me this article, which pertains peripherally to this topic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/U52p1r4Ru43EoQOo1



Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69419&title=feedback-patrickhrdlicka

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 10:56pm
Yes, those kind of inventors, that kind of energy, who are not afraid to be ridiculous and try again and again represent best the spirit of entrepreneurship and the GRIT!

Edited by fatt - 05/11/2018 at 10:56pm
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