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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2018 at 9:03pm
This is from the webpage of something called the USA Pickleball Association about who plays their sport.

The age breakdown for Casual and Core are very different… with Core players being, on average, significantly older
  • ages 6-17: Casual 18.5%; Core 0.8%
  • ages 18-34: Casual 11.7%; Core 5.5%ages 35-54: Casual 29.4%; Core 19.2%
  • ages 55-64: Casual 7.7%; Core 31.8%
  • age 65+: Casual 5.4%; Core 42.7%
  • 13% of Casual participants and 75% of Core participants are age 55 and older [emphasis added]

So a previous poster here called it pretty much correctly (as to who plays it, oddly enough a demographic known for making a certain type of comment here).  I am sure it is fun to play. 

I will stick to TT. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2018 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

pickleball smells too much like vinegar, or is it just players' diapers needing a change?

Are you trying in some perverse way to be amusing by denigrating every player in a racket sport in such a mean-spirited fashion?  

Why don't you cross post your nasty and ill-considered comment to the pickleball forum at their website?  I'm sure they'd be interested to read what you think of them.

The pickleballers can be reached at http://applecountrypickleball.blogspot.com/2017/01/pickleball-forum.html


Edited by berndt_mann - 05/10/2018 at 9:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2018 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

praphrase: pickleball! blah, blah! blah!

Dear Berndt,

Congratulations!  You successfully read and responded to two of the three paragraphs I posted.  However, you have failed to address the crux of the issue.  Please allow me to repeat myself (emphasis added just to make sure you don't miss it):

How about, instead of endlessly discussing a sport most of us are never, ever going to play, not even drunk, could we talk about the real factors which affect a sport's popularity.  You know, things like TV coverage and prize money which might encourage someone to spend 10,000 hours learning how to come second to the Chinese.

Please don't be jerk and go off on another rant about *^%*$$# pickleball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2018 at 9:12pm
As a mod I now declare that all subsequent posts on Pickleball (Racquets du Cornichons) will be hidden.

Because......

This is a table tennis forum. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2018 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

pickleball smells too much like vinegar, or is it just players' diapers needing a change?


Are you trying in some perverse way to be amusing by denigrating every player in a racket sport in such a mean-spirited fashion?  

Why don't you cross post your nasty and ill-considered comment to the pickleball forum at their website?  I'm sure they'd be interested to read what you think of them.

The pickleballers can be reached at http://applecountrypickleball.blogspot.com/2017/01/pickleball-forum.html

I wanted to be funny and I failed. Sorry bern
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2018 at 9:30pm
Dear C. G. (better known to this forum as Tassie52),

Blah blah blah.  Blah.

Things such as live tv coverage and prize money which might encourage some dedicated lad or lass to spend the better part of his/her childhood learning how to play tt only to play second fiddle to a Chinese provincial have been already discussed to death on this forum, the defunct about.com forum, and the TableTennisDaily forum, by me and other posters.

BTW, nether I nor richrf have endlessly discussed that sport to which you refer that most of us never will play,  I had never heard of that particular sport until richrf mentioned it in this thread.  Surely you exaggerate.

I no longer have to be a jerk and go off on "another rant about "*^%*$$# pickleball".  Fatt, with his comment about pickleball players' diapers needing a change summarizes your feelings and his feelings about pickleball far beyond my poor power to add or detract.


Edited by berndt_mann - 05/10/2018 at 9:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 1:13am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

I no longer have to be a jerk and go off on "another rant about "*^%*$$# pickleball".  Fatt, with his comment about pickleball players' diapers needing a change summarizes your feelings and his feelings about pickleball far beyond my poor power to add or detract.

Fatt doesn't speak for me.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 1:26am
In the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82476&PN=1#1024394 there's some interesting discussion about the world ranking of Kanak Jha.  I wonder how many US citizens would recognise that name?  Now what would be the situation if the unthinkable happened and Kanak became world no. !, sweeping aside FSD, Harimoto et al?  I'm fairly sure that he would receive a great deal more media coverage than he's currently getting.  How hard would the TV networks chase him if he won at the Olympics.  I'm guessing pretty hard.

What would be the cumulative effect of increased media coverage for grass roots table tennis in the USA?  I could almost guarantee that there would be a significant upsurge in youngsters lining up to learn to play the game.  (Please note, I'm not suggesting that TT would replace any of the US's major sports.)  Now, if Kanak Jha becomes world number one, what would be the effect here in Oz?  Answer: zip.  For sports to be popular, there have to be locals who are at the top of the tree and getting media coverage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 1:31am
Thread gone 
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finished

start again

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

In the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82476&PN=1#1024394 there's some interesting discussion about the world ranking of Kanak Jha.  I wonder how many US citizens would recognise that name?  Now what would be the situation if the unthinkable happened and Kanak became world no. !, sweeping aside FSD, Harimoto et al?  I'm fairly sure that he would receive a great deal more media coverage than he's currently getting.  How hard would the TV networks chase him if he won at the Olympics.  I'm guessing pretty hard.

What would be the cumulative effect of increased media coverage for grass roots table tennis in the USA?  I could almost guarantee that there would be a significant upsurge in youngsters lining up to learn to play the game.  (Please note, I'm not suggesting that TT would replace any of the US's major sports.)  Now, if Kanak Jha becomes world number one, what would be the effect here in Oz?  Answer: zip.  For sports to be popular, there have to be locals who are at the top of the tree and getting media coverage.

There might be a little extra coverage during the Olympics, but then it will dwindle into almost nothing.  It takes more than Olympic gold to increase TV coverage for the "fringe" sports.  I'd be happy if TT were to get half the coverage of bowling.  Forget that... I'd be even happy to get the coverage that darts does.

As far as an "upsurge in youngsters lining up to learn to play the game", there might be a little boost.  But to have TV coverage and youngsters flocking to tt, there has to be organic growth in the same way that soccer has become more popular.  That's very difficult though especially being an individual sport. Soccer is a team sport which moms, dads, and kids will gravitate towards.  

But TT does have a few things going for it.  Any school gym can accommodate many tables (though storage could be an issue for some).  There are no major injuries (unlike football, basketball, and yes, soccer).  It's good for the brain (ahem... unlike contact football).  You don't have to be tall and muscle bound... anyone can play it.  And of course, it's a lifetime sport!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 9:48am
As a reference point for "fringe" sports TV coverage: yesterday at 9 PM on ESPN2 I stumbled upon broadcast of a 'cornhole' competition - the one where you throw small bags onto a platform with a hole in it. Party game, more or less, in primetime on a major US sports channel. 

I was actually looking for game 7 of Winnipeg-Nashville NHL playoffs, but could not find it. Strange times...   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by freakinjstu freakinjstu wrote:

  • The idea that new players avoid the sport because of the incompetent association, boosting, cheating, or whatever is laughable.  That stuff is invisible to new players, but hey we gotta find someone to blame right?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!

Someone buy this man a beer!


I'd like to suggest the following. New players all over USA avoid competitive table tennis because rapidly improving juniors in CA are rated too low.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

As a reference point for "fringe" sports TV coverage: yesterday at 9 PM on ESPN2 I stumbled upon broadcast of a 'cornhole' competition - the one where you throw small bags onto a platform with a hole in it. Party game, more or less, in primetime on a major US sports channel. 

I was actually looking for game 7 of Winnipeg-Nashville NHL playoffs, but could not find it. Strange times...   
I saw the cornhole listing, had no idea what it was, and never bothered to find out. Thanks for the info. BTW nearly all NHL playoff games, especially weekdays, have been on NBCSN. Perhaps not in your channel line up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

As a reference point for "fringe" sports TV coverage: yesterday at 9 PM on ESPN2 I stumbled upon broadcast of a 'cornhole' competition - the one where you throw small bags onto a platform with a hole in it. Party game, more or less, in primetime on a major US sports channel. 

I was actually looking for game 7 of Winnipeg-Nashville NHL playoffs, but could not find it. Strange times...   
I saw the cornhole listing, had no idea what it was, and never bothered to find out. Thanks for the info. BTW nearly all NHL playoff games, especially weekdays, have been on NBCSN. Perhaps not in your channel line up?

I think I have NBCSN, just did not bother scrolling down long enough (you can probably tell I'm a casual NHL fan...). Plus cornhole show distracted me (and by the way, these guys are quite good).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Why has tt popularity failed in the west but stayed popular in the east?

Here's a list of the worldwide estimates for sport popularity:
https://www.pledgesports.org/2017/06/top-10-most-played-sports/

Did you notice that every single sport that is more popular than table tennis has more restrictive rules on equipment and far, far less equipment diversity?

I realize correlation is not causation. 

But I also realize that the end-goal of switching to a plastic ball was to further tune the sport and the type of and points that dominate. 

I've been playing since 38mm celluloid. And each set of rule changes (speed glue ban 1, ball size change, speed glue ban 2, booster ban, plastic ball) encourages manufacturers to roll out a new set of rubbers and blades "designed for the new rule" changes.

Now, with the plastic ball, the ITTF and manufacturers have had an additional 4+ years of being able to fiddle with the speed, spin and trajectories of the game.


How have these changes impacted the game?
 -In 2018, players will actually step around their forehand to backhand banana flick.
 -With less spin, and less variation, younger players are getting surprising upsets against established veterans.



How have these changes increased the popularity of the sport?
 -this thread is a good one for pickleball discussions.




on the top 10 list TT is the biggest sport with 300 million players more than any other sport/ whats the problem
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

How have these changes impacted the game?
 -In 2018, players will actually step around their forehand to backhand banana flick.
 -With less spin, and less variation, younger players are getting surprising upsets against established veterans.

Younger players develop their strokes with the plastic ball. Veterans developed and practiced their strokes for many years with a previous ball type. It's a new game for both children and experienced adults.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 9:49pm
(smackman). on the top 10 list TT is the biggest sport with 300 million players more than any other sport/ whats the problem

Most Participants / Most Played (topendsports.com)

When discussing popular sports around the world, the sports most played is often considered, not just what people like to watch (there is a difference). One list compared the number of participants in sport using data provided by each of the International Sports Federations. It sounds like a valid method, however the numbers provided did not seem reliable, with Volleyball and Table Tennis coming out on top of Soccer. There can be good arguments for Table Tennis being ranked high in terms of participation, as it is very popular in China and many other Asian countries. As yet there does not seem to be an accurate list of the most played sports around the world.baseball fan

There may be a difference between sports played in organized competition and recreationally. Any visitor to South America will see the thousands of kids playing soccer every day in the streets, a scene that is repeated in many other places around the world. A popular sport that is not usually found on top sports lists is running or track and field. Track and Field (athletics) is one of the highest participation sports in the world, and as many people just run for fitness they do not all participate in organized sporting contests. What about fishing? Although many people participate in fishing around the world, it is dubious whether fishing can be considered a sport for all of these. Although there are some fishing competitions most people participate in fishing for food or recreation.

IMO those paragraphs from topendsports.com pretty well sum up the problem.  300 million people playing table tennis worldwide is and can only be a guesstimate.  Moreover, it is a guesstimate which would necessarily include players belonging to national associations, whose numbers can be known with some exactitude, and players who do not, the vast majority who play recreationally or socially, whose numbers can only be estimated.


Edited by berndt_mann - 05/11/2018 at 10:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

on the top 10 list TT is the biggest sport with 300 million players more than any other sport/ whats the problem

Most Participants / Most Played (topendsports.com)

When discussing popular sports around the world, the sports most played is often considered, not just what people like to watch (there is a difference)... One list compared...

Yep, all true!

So much of what goes on in the real world is hard to measure.  What's the famous quote from William Bruce Cameron?

It would be nice if all of the data which sociologists require could be enumerated because then we could run them through IBM machines and draw charts as the economists do. However, not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

When it comes to trivial matters such as table tennis (rather than deeper sociological issues) we recognise we're guesstimating rather than working with solid data.  However, we can still draw some conclusions from our real world observations.  For example, quoting from Forbes magazine:
The five highest-paid athletes [in the world], Ronaldo, LeBron James, Lionel Messi, Roger Federer and Kevin Durant all generate more than $25 million annually from sponsors. In addition to their athletic achievements, the appeal of this group for marketers is a function of the global sports they play.

Put this together with the bit Berndt quotes: Any visitor to South America will see the thousands of kids playing soccer every day in the streets, a scene that is repeated in many other places around the world.

There are some distinct correlations between a sport's popularity for participation and its popularity for spectators.  The link between them is visibility.  All five of the world's highest salaried players participate in sports which are televised world wide: 2 x football, 2 x basketball, 1 x tennis.

Why is basketball suddenly so popular in China?  Not because it started with millions of kids playing in the streets, but because it was televised from the west.  It has been a fringe sport in Asia for a long time, but once kids started seeing it and understood how fabulously wealthy players can become, then they started playing it. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2018 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by freakinjstu freakinjstu wrote:

  • The idea that new players avoid the sport because of the incompetent association, boosting, cheating, or whatever is laughable.  That stuff is invisible to new players, but hey we gotta find someone to blame right?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!

Someone buy this man a beer!



I'd like to suggest the following. New players all over USA avoid competitive table tennis because rapidly improving juniors in CA are rated too low.


An alternative would be change from a match rating system to a class then when losing to underated juniors does not affect your rating in the short term.

The match rating system does discourage tournament participation by some players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2018 at 11:26am
Another alternative is to stop all of the cheating. It isn't even cheating since it is all out in the open including the cans of speed glue.

One of the problems with this sport (and there are so many) is that players are so obsessed with spin that playing by the rules is totally disregarded by pretty much everyone in order to allow for more and more spin. Fine for the spin crazies, but a total turn-off for anyone who likes the concept of some rules and enjoy playing with people who have similar sensibilities. And please, I don't need any response from those who cheat. I know all of the rationalizations and this includes all of the Hurricane Boosters.

As for me, I really like the egalitarian and rather neutralized role paddles play in Pickleball. I can concentrate on the games without needing a degree in chemistry - and everyone plays by the rules to a fault.

Edited by richrf - 05/12/2018 at 11:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2018 at 12:12pm
Cans of speed glue?

Really? Not anyplace I have played in the last bunch of years. I used lots of glue on Bryce circa 2007. I don't miss it even though no modern rubber or booster comes close to replicating it (especially when we had 38 mm balls).

Most people on TT forums complain that the ever-inceasing size and weight of balls has reduced the role of spin since circa 2000. Dumbed down the sport according to a lot of peoplecwho played across these eras. Laws of physics support the contention. It was the intent of ITTF all along.

Some people have clearly never really liked the sport in all of its facets (hint-- watch for complaints about long pips and serve dominance and too much spin etc.). These people claim it has died. For them other racket sports are indeed appropriate. They should play them and leavevTT players in peace.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2018 at 1:28pm
Foucault Pendulum ax style serving coming, TIMBEEEEEER!!!

Edited by fatt - 05/12/2018 at 1:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2018 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

[QUOTE=berndt_mann]
[quote=smackman] on the top 10 list TT is the biggest sport with 300 million players more than any other sport/ whats the problem

Most Participants / Most Played (topendsports.com)

When discussing popular sports around the world, the sports most played is often considered, not just what people like to watch (there is a difference)... One list compared...

To me if millions are playing TT socially or  playing soccer/football on the streets then that's what it all about
millions is millions, do you have Tt at your retirement home?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2018 at 9:31pm
sorry my copy and pasting is not too good
My job is table tennis every day from morning to night, and Im happy wherever is played, I get asked where can I play and I will find a venue close to them, some people play at their houses with a bunch of friends, whats the problem?
You don't have to go to a club to say you are a table tennis, snooker, football player

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