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    Posted: 05/18/2018 at 12:41am
I've been trying to improve my fundamentals because when I started I never had the chance to work on them. So last week I started to do about 15 minutes of footwork exercises twice a week. I'm starting simple with the goal of being able to eventually do random drills without compromising my footwork (at the moment that's impossible).

Yesterday I did 10 minutes of FH BH footwork. This is the last 2 minutes of it. What do you guys think when you see it? Is there anything that instantly stands out? Anything fundamentally I should address right away? I have my own opinions on things I'm doing wrong, but I would like to hear what others think :)

There are also some issues that I think will work themselves out with more practice. If there are any issues you see like that, feel free to post them too. Although I'm more after fundamental problems, problems that will get ingrained for the worse if I keep this up.

Thank you!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2018 at 1:59am
Not sue if this is a correct assessment but if pressed I would say that your strokes and footwork is really good, especially considering this is at the end of the exercise when you're more tired. Maybe your coming up with your legs on your backhand a bit as you hit the ball and this energy could be focused going forwards instead. On the forehand you seem to be reaching rather than stepping for some of the shots but again, this I find tends to get worse at the end of excercises.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2018 at 2:45am
You're standing much too square to the table, especially for your forehand stroke.  Compare your positioning with Wang Liqin's.  Granted, he's standing much further away from the table, but the same holds true up close - compare with the woman in the background.  (If you're going to compare forehands, there is none better than WLQ.)







If you compare your body positions, you'll also see that WLQ's body is much more upright, where you are leaning much more across to your left.  Your head is over your left foot, where WLQ's is over his hip.  In part, I suspect your lean is because you are reaching for the ball rather than moving your feet sideways.  If you watch your video, you really aren't moving sideways very much at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2018 at 3:30am
@Simon_plays Thank you for the kind words :) There's definitely a lot more I can improve on, especially since I only started to work on this last week. Thanks for the tip for the backhand. I haven't really thought about that so far. The forehand thing is an issue, and it's actually a reason why I started doing this exercise. I was actually targeting a related but different issue. During match play I would move too close to the balls deep to my forehand, especially after pivoting, which prevented me from recovering for the next ball deep to my backhand. I felt like I could get away with taking a smaller step. In this particular case, I'm still not happy with a few of the balls in which I'm definitely reaching too much. I'm actually hoping (and I could be wrong) in those cases, with more practice and better anticipation, I can read the ball faster and get there in time.

@tassie52 Thank you! Standing too square on is one of the things I'm planning to work on next week! Actually, the week before I did a forehand only drill and I didn't really have that problem, so I suspect the backhand is forcing me into that stance. But I definitely want to fix it! I should be able to have my right foot at least another 15 or so centimeters forward without affecting too much. You've made a really good point about me leaning my body towards the left. Actually, I've been thinking and trying various things every week to try and fix a weight transfer issue I have (if you look at my right foot, I rarely ever fully transfer my weight onto it. I usually start on my left foot and finish towards the middle). That might be the actual solution I've been looking for. My fundamental forehand actually has quite a bit of me leaning left (and the reason is that it helps transfer my weight over my left knee), but I might be overdoing it. I'll definitely try this out and see how it feels. As for the not moving sideways, I didn't feel most those balls needed me to. There were a few balls that were wider than I thought which caused me to overly reach though. But once I fix the leaning issue, maybe I'll need to.


Keep the great suggestions coming guys :) I really do appreciate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2018 at 9:40am
This is a great thing to put time into and will pay off a lot.  There is a lot of good stuff here.  You are very consistent, the timing of taking the ball is good, and you are resetting your feet after every shot, which is huge for maintaining balance.  

Now for some less good, I was also going to say that you are playing both shots in bh stance.  If I saw you standing this way in a match I would think your fh was weak and test it first.  And to your last post, I don't think you can move your right foot forward 15 cm.  You are tall and will be jammed up on the table.  Maybe you didn't mean it literally, but I think you have to move your left foot back instead.  

The stance is affecting your fh stroke to where you don't get any power from your legs or hip rotation.  You aren't going for a big shot, but doing this too much might start to hurt your fh effectiveness.

Your blocker is also not placing balls wide to your fh so you really need to move and recover. Maybe you are starting simple and will add difficulty later, but I think it would be more effective to move the fhs around so you take large and small steps, and even have some at your elbow. 

You could also do this as shadow practice without losing much if anything. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yasaka100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2018 at 1:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2018 at 11:55pm
@BRS Thanks for your kind words and  advice! You're right about the foot thing! I might have to move my left leg back instead. Also, maybe that's why so many people in matches stubbornly return balls to my forehand until they finally realise my backhand is 2 to 3 times weaker hehe. I'll definitely be fixing my feet during my next practice session! I'll also ask my blocker to try and return the forehand balls a little more wide. He's one of the more consistent people I play with, but I don't think he can consistently block to a specific location in the forehand or backhand court. At first I asked him to block a little wider, but he kept missing the table, so I asked him to aim for the middle of the forehand zone, which resulted in a lot more consistency, with the occasional one that goes wide (and my feet were a little too slow, so I reached for those). I think with more practice, both of us will improve on it :)

Here's a video of me earlier in the week when I tried to do a forehand footwork drill, one wide, one to the middle. But my partner was struggling to get the balls to those locations, so I just treated it as a forehand half court random drill. My footwork picks up during the rally. They're also much longer because my forehand is a lotttttt more consistent than my backhand. First half is a side on view, second half is a front on view.



@fatt Thanks so much for the compliments :) Sometimes it's tough. About half my time is spent helping my students improve (which I love doing), and usually I do drills with them. I've got a pretty consistent block, so they usually get really good footwork practice in. And they all improve so quickly! But not many adults really have the consistency or want to do that kind of practice. This guy that I'm playing with is one of the only guys that I can get some drills in. He's not very strong, but he has a pretty decent backhand block. Also, he's willing to let me do drills. (Sorry, a little unrelated hehe) Usually before the footwork, I spend about 15 minutes doing forehands and 15 minutes doing backhands. Sometimes blocking and sometimes attacking so my partner can practice, too. I'll use that time to try and improve the fluidity of my strokes. My wrist usage is still very little on my backhand, so I think as I improve on that, I'll be able to have a smaller, quicker and more explosive stroke on my backhand. I think that's what's needed to improve the fluidity!!

@Yasaka100 Thank you!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarkerMyLove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 12:13am
I think @tassie52 is on the money in terms of hunching/leaning too much, especially going to the FH.  When shadow swinging, work on using your weight transfer to move just your WEIGHT to your left foot....obviously with your 'waist' turn-- rather than moving your upper body and head to your FH side.  It does seem you have a little bit too much excess movement.

Also in terms of your stoke, which is nice, but I think that even hitting at a medium pace there is not much "ball striking".  I'd prefer to see much more thought on the amount of brushing or 'not brushing' you want to do.  I'd work on really getting a feel for the amount of brush and dwell you want "on impact" rather than simply swinging through the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 10:38am
Thanks DarkerMyLove! I agree and I'm looking forward to testing it out to see how it feels tomorrow (if work allows me to practice at night). In the videos above, I was trying to put a good amount of spin and speed to make the ball as easy to block as possible. One of my goals, besides working on my footwork, is of course keeping the rally going. If it were to be done via multiball, I'd definitely be putting more speed and spin. I'm hoping that as both my partner and I improve at this, we'll be able to maintain the rally with more pace. I'll be working that in the non-footwork part of the practice, where I'm just making trying to improve my forehand and backhand stroke!

Cheers!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 2:33pm
Looking pretty good and I agree with what folks said about the square stance in a forehand shot. Your consistency is really good, but I would question the applicability of this shot in the game. It looks like you're doing light countering close to the table. In the match, once you and your opponents begin to drive more speed and spin, that is not what you'll experience.

Instead, you'll have people brace for your shot and block it right back ( if they are not ready or scrambling to defend ) or away from you ( if they are ready for your shot ). That's why there are drills like Falkenberg. If you want to work on covering your crossover point, than that's different from what you're doing. If you want to work on movement, then you need to stretch yourself. 

I'd suggest double Falkenberg drill ( same as Falkenberg, but you take the same shot twice ), I'd also suggest two forehand, two backhand drill ( the 2 and 2 drill ). You can also do one backhand, one cross over, one backhand one wide drill.

I think what you'll find is that on your second shot with the forehand when doing double drills, your left foot will need to go back on the forehand side. Otherwise, you'll find yourself excessively leaning with your back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 8:19pm
Thank you Leshxa. The more feedback the better :) I usually back off up to a metre from where I'm standing in that video after the opening topspin. So I do agree that it's not very applicable to my usual match games. But I'm hoping to slowly incorporate a little more close to the table play into my game as well as just in general improving my anticipation and footwork close to the table. I'm still working on the very basics, so I'm definitely planning to add in more difficult and realistic drills like falkenberg, semi random drills, which should start to seep into my match play!

I'll try the 2 and 2 drill today (if I can go to practice tonight, or Thursday if I can't go today). I think that'll be quite simple to add to my current drill.

Cheers!


Edited by mickd - 05/20/2018 at 8:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 9:00pm
I do not agree with the dominant position here that your stance is too backhand oriented. Close to the table, it is common to play out of one stance as long as one is able to facilitate hip and shoulder rotation out of your preferred stance. Samson Dubina discusses this in an article with some examples - I will find and post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 9:02pm
http://www.samsondubina.com/coaching/stance
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 9:53pm
Thanks NL. All opinions are welcome, so thanks for taking the time to reply :)

I read through the article (nice article by the way) and watched the three videos. Samson mentioned that the main point is not having to change the stance between forehands and backhands anymore. From what I saw in the videos, none of them did, Ovtcharov had a much more forehand oriented stance. He was however not doing multiball so he had a little more time in between balls, and possibly standing a little further back than ZJK and FZD. He's also taller, which I think may have him standing a little further. ZJK and FZD were pretty close to square on to the table. I think the pace of the multiball and how close they were standing both played a role there.

I feel the basic FH BH drill should be a little more side on than I am. So I'm going to try it out still. If it doesn't work out well then I'll stick with being a little more square on. That will be easier since it's what my muscles have already remembered. I definitely think both are valid and have their own place in the game.

If I do end up staying more square on, I'll need to compensate in other ways to generate more power on the FH. I could probably take the ball a little earlier so my arm is hitting the ball a little more in front of my body. That would generate a little more forward momentum. I don't know if that's a good idea tho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2018 at 10:19pm
Understood. You can play out of any stance you want, it all depends on how much weight transfer and hip rotation you can get out of it. If you think a modification makes your transition better go for it. But looking at tur CNT players, you can see that they aren't doing that much differently from you.

In the end, close to the table isn't always as close to the table as you are and in the end, the key is to find the right balance between speed, power and recovery.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2018 at 1:41am
Agreed! And yes, I actually do feel I'm too close to the table because I can't get a proper forward swing on some of the backhands. I feel like whenever I do miss it's because I get jammed by the ball being too deep and me being too close to the table. So that will be incorporated tonight, too :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2018 at 6:06am
There is too much movement for a 2-point drill like this. Your weight is shifting too much, up/down and left/right, when alternating b/w FH and BH. There is also your body turning to the side when doing the FH.

For simple counter hits, your body shouldn't hop that much between shots. Especially when the ball goes to your wide FH, your left foot is stuck, causing your weight to lean entirely on the left foot, with your body and knees turning and facing the side, making you hop there(@0:36-0:40). Gotta fix that. Take a one-step with your left foot by using your right foot as the support foot.

Edited by zeio - 05/21/2018 at 6:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2018 at 9:15pm
Thank you, zeio! I probably need to try and start more slowly. I feel like if I don't keep moving a lot, I can't make it to the next ball. Do you mean the leaning issue when you say my body is turning to the side for my FHs? Or do you mean I'm using too much waist turn? The 2 times I reach for the ball at ~0:36-0:40 is something I'm hoping will fix itself with more practice. I couldn't read the course of the ball fast enough, and ended up reaching before moving.


Last night I spent a lot of time trying not to put my weight over my left foot, causing me to lean to the side. I felt like the quality of the ball was much higher and I had a lot more weight transfer finishing on my right foot. It's still a work in progress as I'll need a lot of time to get used to it. I also tried some footwork drills again, and even if I felt like I didn't lean much, watching the video, I was still leaning a little more than I wanted.

I'll post more about it when I have time to post the videos, too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2018 at 11:33pm
I've been watching a couple of other tutorials on footwork, trying to figure out why mickd's video seems wrong.  It's not mick's footwork or shot production, or the blocker's placement, but something else has been nagging at me.  In the end, the thing that strikes me is that other footwork vids are focussing on developing the right sideways movement, and to do that the player is using their forehand only, or in a drill where a backhand might be used but in conjunction with more than one forehand.   (See the vids that go with the Samson Dubina article, or any one of a hundred footwork tutorials.)  If you're only playing one backhand, one forehand and neither of them forces you to move, is it a footwork drill?

If the aim of the drill is simply to work on transitioning between forehand and backhand, then fine.  But if mick wants to develop footwork, is this the right exercise?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2018 at 1:44am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

I've been watching a couple of other tutorials on footwork, trying to figure out why mickd's video seems wrong.  It's not mick's footwork or shot production, or the blocker's placement, but something else has been nagging at me.  In the end, the thing that strikes me is that other footwork vids are focussing on developing the right sideways movement, and to do that the player is using their forehand only, or in a drill where a backhand might be used but in conjunction with more than one forehand.   (See the vids that go with the Samson Dubina article, or any one of a hundred footwork tutorials.)  If you're only playing one backhand, one forehand and neither of them forces you to move, is it a footwork drill?

If the aim of the drill is simply to work on transitioning between forehand and backhand, then fine.  But if mick wants to develop footwork, is this the right exercise?

Good catch! I suggested doubling up on each shot, to break the monotonous rhythm since that's rarely what happens in the game, but I guess I've made an assumption also thinking that more power will be driven, which forces faster movement as the ball coming back will be stronger. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2018 at 5:03pm
Hey Mickd that looks great! :)

If I had to say just one thing in criticism is that there is a bit too much movement, you could minimize it a bit more and be even more stable. Sometimes you make more than 1 micro-adjustment for a shot which is too much, but you move very quickly and it was very fun to see.

Try to up the pace if you're getting balls in consistently in order to work on this
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2018 at 6:04pm
Hi mickd, your BH has improved tremendously I would say.... Anyway I agree with zeio, you've got to cut down on the excess movement...You look a bit confused and indecisive when moving. Going to the FH is a two step process, first place your left foot in the correct place simultaneously with the waist turn and weight transfer to your left foot, then hit the ball, the other foot should follow automatically... If the ball goes to your BH or if you need to do a step-around, you "find" the ball with your right foot. It's all about placing that first foot in the right place. In Chinese they call it "finding the ball".

Edited by blahness - 05/22/2018 at 6:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2018 at 12:35am
Sorry for the late reply, guys. I had a 13 hour workday after only sleeping 5 hours, so I went to sleep shortly after getting home. I really appreciate all the replies :)

@Tassie52 Thanks for the reply. I definitely agree about it looking off because of the lack of side movement. I have this image in my head of this exercise where my feet would be moving sideways between every shot, but in actuality it doesn't turn out that way. There was a video I saw recently on TableTennisDaily. I'll link it here. Ideally I'd be able to do something like this:



@Leshxa On Monday I tried a hitting with a little more power, and I think the stroke looked quite good but we couldn't keep it up. I didn't get a chance to try the 2-2 footwork because I was concentrating too much on keeping my body from leaning onto my forehand side foot (I only did a bit of footwork because I was trying to get used to it). I'll definitely try it next week and post back. Thanks :)

@Lightzy Thanks!! Earlier on in the exercise in the OP I was actually moving even more haha. I thought I was making too many micro-adjustments so I tried to tone it down. I'm not sure why it's so hard to only move once, but I guess the anticipation isn't there yet for me. I think I end up moving twice because I move incorrectly once, then try to fix it (which may or may not work out well because I'm late for the next ball). When I upped the pace, the consistently died completely But that'll just take more practice! I'm glad it was fun watching the video! Recently I've been trying to keep the videos less than 3 minutes (ideally less than 2), too. I think it's more likely people will actually watch it :)

Sorry, I have to go back to work so I'll reply to you soon @blahness!! And I still need to post those videos! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2018 at 3:07am
Okay, finishes my classes for today.

@blahness Thank you! I've been spending a lot more time over the last year working on my backhand. Now I'm at a point where if the ball did come to my backhand during a game, the point may not be over, haha! Since both you and zeio mentioned moving my left foot first, I'll try do a rally next time where I concentrate on getting my left foot into position first. I'll report back how it goes! Thanks again for the advice and compliment!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2018 at 3:59am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Do you mean the leaning issue when you say my body is turning to the side for my FHs? Or do you mean I'm using too much waist turn?


Both.

Check out ML's FH-BH drill @8:26. Compare with Schlager's. Also, sandiway's posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote freakinjstu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2018 at 12:39pm
I just want to add my thanks to everyone contributing to this thread and let you know how invaluable this stuff is for newbies like myself.

Sure there are lots of youtube videos, but they always show professionals with perfect footwork and no discussion of how to get from here to there. For us clumsy schlubs whose limbs don't move like that on demand - having it broken down to the minutiae of little movements really helps. 

(ps: that schlub comment does not reflect on OP - to my ignorant eyes his footwork looks perfect - but the subsequent discussion has been enlightening and amazing)

Thanks again and please continue the discussion :)
Sometimes I use big words I don't fully understand to make myself seem more photosynthesis
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zeio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2018 at 1:05am
Found a tutorial by Tang Jianjun on this exact drill.

3 types of FH-BH setplay, the dos and don'ts.

https://youtu.be/avpdoubRMuc


Edited by zeio - 05/24/2018 at 1:08am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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mickd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2018 at 1:10am
Thanks zeio. I remember those videos. I can't watch youku, but I've seen it from YouTube too. I guess I need to try and be more economical with my movement, as sandiway put it. Definitely not easy!! But the amount of footwork practice I've done so far has been unfortunately pretty minimal too.

@freakinjstu That's one reason why I choose to post these threads :) Of course I'm after advice, but I'm also hoping these become helpful for others, too. My videos would definitely be more relatable to most than the pro videos!


Here is the forehand video. My main goal was to not lean. I wasn't really thinking about footwork, but sometimes I did move to adjust to the ball. Since I was mostly trying to rotate my waist without leaning, many times I adjusted by reaching with my arm (opening and closing the angle between my arm and body to get the balls). I know that's not ideal but I couldn't really concentrate on getting the movement and rotation right in one go.

How does it look? I still leaned sometimes out of habit, but in general is it looking okay? Am I still leaning too much? Rotating too much? Too little? Thanks everyone!




EDIT: Didn't see your video above zeio before posting, so I'll check that out now :)
EDIT2: Soon** I have to go back to work :S


Edited by mickd - 05/24/2018 at 1:14am
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zeio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2018 at 1:25am
Your stroke looks much better in the latest video.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Ieyasu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2018 at 1:33am
You might find this article from Larry Hodges interesting/helpful:
http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1270

I see more leaning in the video of Zeio's than in your videos.

Based on what Hodges writes, leaning isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Even in the WLQ video, you can see his head moving from body center to his right foot.



Edited by Ieyasu - 05/24/2018 at 1:46am
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