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Urgent help with strokes

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    Posted: 06/05/2018 at 8:29pm
I just wanted to ask for help regarding my strokes. I play casually and am quite happy with my backhand loop and forehand loop compared to my competition but I only have one problem which I really need help to fix. Anytime I do a loop my racket angle moves while doing the stroke and creates inconsistency. So the ball either goes out or into the net. I don't understand why it happens but I also notice a lot of other plays have this problem when doing a topsin or loop that their wrist angle just goes down or closes. To help better visualize it whenever I hit the ball forward my wrist snaps then it just goes down and I can't keep my blade angle constant it just moves drastically. I know a lot of you guys are experienced so I really hope someone can help me with my problem. Edit link of my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwTMkr_mRNo  just copy and paste into your searchbar this video is just showing what I been trying to say is happening to me.

Edit 2 a video with strokes on a table just post onto your searchbar and it should show up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctBefuwYBng&feature=youtu.be


Edited by Bardock - 07/02/2018 at 4:13am
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maurice101 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2018 at 10:16pm
My coach told me my inconsistent backhand loop was due to the end of the whip start position being inconsistent and having different angles. If you do not start at a consistent repeatable position you will never be consistent. He wanted me to have a horizontal bat position at the end of the whip position for all topspin loops both against backspin and topspin. If you look at the top 10 players they pretty much all do this. Most learners do not do this at all. Check out Ma Long at 12 seconds and how closed his  bat is at the end of the whip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAc6phK4bg

The other thing that is needed is the forward bowing down and coming up during the whip process. This helps the bat get horizontal and then more open as you come out of the bow.

See this in the above video at 12 seconds.

If you do not come out of the bow your shot will go into the net. The body movement helps with power and it makes the shot more effortless.

Post a video of your shot for the best feedback.


Edited by maurice101 - 06/05/2018 at 10:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2018 at 10:48pm
I would check your grip. The more vertical (pointed toward tip of racket) your index finger sits on the racket the more wrist freedom you have and the more wobble you can get. With the index finger horizontal (parallel to btm of rubber sheet) the wrist is more rigid yet still able to move in a proper plane to add spin.

Mark - Not a coach but I play one on the internet.

Edited by mjamja - 06/05/2018 at 10:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 12:20am
It's possible your using too much shoulder. I think if you have a stable pivot point around your elbow, it's easier to keep the racket angle consistent.

If you're able to upload a short video, I'm sure many people will be able to identify the main issues right away!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 6:36am
1) Don't straighten your arm or use the shoulder at all, keep the elbow bent and your arm close to you throughout the stroke
2) Release the wrist fully. You can happily end the stroke with your wrist fully bent to the right (with your racket heat pointing to the right of you

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 9:33am
daily shadow work in front of a mirror, 10 to 15 minutes a day would be very helpful as you get a chance to view yourself in the act eliminating the need for video. It will bring awareness of what you are doing in the stroke and over time allow u to change your behavior. Try and have a coach or local strong player review your stroke with you weekly and make corrections and get feedback. We all have flaws in our strokes that time and effort to reduce or eliminate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 1:19pm
Don't be shy. Post of a video of yourself playing or practicing and it would be easier to offer feedback.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

daily shadow work in front of a mirror, 10 to 15 minutes a day would be very helpful as you get a chance to view yourself in the act eliminating the need for video. It will bring awareness of what you are doing in the stroke and over time allow u to change your behavior. Try and have a coach or local strong player review your stroke with you weekly and make corrections and get feedback. We all have flaws in our strokes that time and effort to reduce or eliminate.

I wouldn't suggest shadow stroking until the errors have been corrected and you are sure you are shadowing the right thing, or he may reinforce bad habits.

Sounds to me like just making a conscious effort to keep your wrist in place would solve the issue, hard to tell by a text description though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 1:30pm
I almost dial 911 from reading the title . Changing path or angle mid/stroke is usually due to either late, or wrong starting position of the stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 5:49pm
Thanks for the reply guys I will try to get a video of what i'm talking about but to describe it in words is that when i hit the ball my wrist just naturally snaps down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2018 at 8:38pm
Sorry guys I been busy so forgot about this thread and I just wanted to show a video of my stroke. I haven't been able to get game footage but just from showing the stroke I think you guys can better understand what i'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwTMkr_mRNo Copy the link of the video into your search bar and it will show up

Edited by Bardock - 06/19/2018 at 8:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 9:46am
In your stroke, you're throwing the paddle forward and your wrist naturally curls. The good news is you've figured out how to do the basic - but you're right about consistency here. The problem with what you're doing is that you have to have perfect timing everytime to make it correct, but another issue is that the face of the blade opens up and then close as you do your stroke, so that if you catch the wrong timing - too early on a topspin ball the ball is going to go off the table, and if you take the ball too late, the ball will go into the net. The stroke you use is better for no-spin, light underspin ball.

For topspin, you have to already be on top of the ball, covering it from above and brush the top part of the ball. You also have to keep that angle, otherwise, the ball will kick off the table.

Hope this helps.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 10:45am
The stroke in your video bears no relation to a backhand loop at all. You can only hit the ball with the paddle angle and swing path like that. A loop grazes the ball at an angle. The contact can be thinner or thicker, but it can't be flat againsr the ball.

That's a totally legit bh punch or drive though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 11:44am
Wow man that stroke is so wrong there is nothing about it that's right. Get a personal coaching session to build your backhand before it gets ingrained
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 11:54am
Could you show us a video of your basic backhand counterhit and your backhand topspin (priority on the counterhit)?

From what I saw from the video above, I think you need to take a step back and work on the fundamentals before you try to do a backhand loop.

There are many people who are willing to help here, so if you're not too shy about the videos, I'm sure it'll help you improve.

That said, a coach will be the quickest!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 4:32pm
See just like you guys im weirded out with these problems because it works in game but its fundamentally wrong and inconsistent with the racket angle. The whole darn racket angle in both my backhand and topspins just eventually closes right in the middle of my stroke.

 But anyways since I showed a lil visual of what happens since you guys are experienced I wanted to ask in your strokes can you guys snap your wrist while keeping the racket angle consistent? Beccause I feel like I understand the fundamentals like power from the ground, how to graze or hit, etc. But like when I hit the forward direction my wrist just naturally snaps forward and messes up my whole racket angle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 5:32pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzfjAQodQu8

That's a BH loop of incoming underspin shot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2018 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Bardock Bardock wrote:

But anyways since I showed a lil visual of what happens since you guys are experienced I wanted to ask in your strokes can you guys snap your wrist while keeping the racket angle consistent?

I can generally keep the racket angle about the same. I think most people do even when they snap their wrist. That said, I'm really bad at the backhand drive against underspin, so I'm still working on it. If anything, the racket angle generally opens a bit from a closed angle to help lift the backspin.

Against topspin or no spin, the racket angle stays closed and doesn't really change.

In the long run, I think it'll be more beneficial to take it slower and work on your counterhit first (which is why I asked for a video) because the strokes all build upon each other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2018 at 1:19am
Originally posted by Bardock Bardock wrote:

See just like you guys im weirded out with these problems because it works in game but its fundamentally wrong and inconsistent with the racket angle. The whole darn racket angle in both my backhand and topspins just eventually closes right in the middle of my stroke.

 But anyways since I showed a lil visual of what happens since you guys are experienced I wanted to ask in your strokes can you guys snap your wrist while keeping the racket angle consistent? Beccause I feel like I understand the fundamentals like power from the ground, how to graze or hit, etc. But like when I hit the forward direction my wrist just naturally snaps forward and messes up my whole racket angle. 

The correct way of using the wrist movement (on both FH and BH) is to focus more on the radial deviation/ulnar deviation plane, not the flexion/extension (see below). This allows you to have a consistent racket angle when hitting. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2018 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Bardock Bardock wrote:

See just like you guys im weirded out with these problems because it works in game but its fundamentally wrong and inconsistent with the racket angle. The whole darn racket angle in both my backhand and topspins just eventually closes right in the middle of my stroke.

 But anyways since I showed a lil visual of what happens since you guys are experienced I wanted to ask in your strokes can you guys snap your wrist while keeping the racket angle consistent? Beccause I feel like I understand the fundamentals like power from the ground, how to graze or hit, etc. But like when I hit the forward direction my wrist just naturally snaps forward and messes up my whole racket angle. 

The correct way of using the wrist movement (on both FH and BH) is to focus more on the radial deviation/ulnar deviation plane, not the flexion/extension (see below). This allows you to have a consistent racket angle when hitting. 



Yeah I agree but my wrist naturally does flexion and extension so do you know how to control it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2018 at 8:20pm
You're basically punching the ball with an open racket angle. So since your movement is only forward, your wrist is naturally doing flexion and extension.

Your stroke needs to be more diagonal. From a lower position closer to your body to a higher position further from your body. You also need to close your racket angle more before you swing forward. Having a closed racket angle is very important. That directional movement plus the closed racket angle will help you control the flexion and extension, and use more radial and ulnar deviation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2018 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Bardock Bardock wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Bardock Bardock wrote:

See just like you guys im weirded out with these problems because it works in game but its fundamentally wrong and inconsistent with the racket angle. The whole darn racket angle in both my backhand and topspins just eventually closes right in the middle of my stroke.

 But anyways since I showed a lil visual of what happens since you guys are experienced I wanted to ask in your strokes can you guys snap your wrist while keeping the racket angle consistent? Beccause I feel like I understand the fundamentals like power from the ground, how to graze or hit, etc. But like when I hit the forward direction my wrist just naturally snaps forward and messes up my whole racket angle. 


The correct way of using the wrist movement (on both FH and BH) is to focus more on the radial deviation/ulnar deviation plane, not the flexion/extension (see below). This allows you to have a consistent racket angle when hitting. 




Yeah I agree but my wrist naturally does flexion and extension so do you know how to control it?


If you like to hit like that you can switch to short pips and join the dark side . The force from flexion and extension acts perpendicular to the blade and thus the ball and so cannot brush the ball effectively.

If you want to proceed with inverted BH playstyle, you've gotta consciously change what you're used to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JediJesseS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2018 at 2:10pm
Flexion/extension seems really important on the backhand to generate any power. As long as it's combined with upward forces and the swing isn't just in one plane.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2018 at 4:11am
So hello guys sorry it's been a while but I have managed to upload a video of my back and forehand loops on a table. I just wanted to really show you guys visually what my problem is so all you guys can better understand whats going on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctBefuwYBng&feature=youtu.be

So their is the link just copy and paste it into your address bar and it should show up. And if you see my backhand stroke it should really emphasize the racket angle problem i'm talking about where my wrist just naturally closes its angle and it really creates inconsistency. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2018 at 9:58am
I wouldn't call these "loops". They look like smashes. Can you do these shots really slowly? I'd like to see how slow you can go.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avova Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2018 at 11:01am
There is nothing urgent about this.

You do not have forehand or backhand loops, as was said already.

Proper technique will take years to learn.

Get a coach. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2018 at 2:18pm
Good idea i'll try to get footage of my strokes slowly.

Edited by Bardock - 07/02/2018 at 2:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2018 at 11:39pm
Finish your forehand stroke in front of your eyes.  Finish your backhand stroke at eye level. This simple tip will improve your strokes. If you can not get a coach I suggest you join ttedge.com and go through the learning table tennis videos slowly as your technique needs a lot of work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2018 at 2:05am
Originally posted by Bardock Bardock wrote:

Yeah I agree but my wrist naturally does flexion and extension so do you know how to control it?
 

Rotate your wrist and forearm forward some more until you can see your palm some. That will give you a start on getting yourself ready to do a BH topspin. That will take away some of the "slap" in your motion. If you have been getting away with the BH you showed in your first vid in your match play, more power to you, you won't get a lot better trying to hit BH with any power using the stroke from your 1st vid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2018 at 4:35am
We got all these giving advice and none mentioned legs /=. Your stroke can be right but without your legs your stroke will always feel awkward. Watch any pro play and look at their ready stance and look at the mirror. 

People state legs being too wide =  can't move. Well only if you are doing a split, the lower, the wider the better. Hand movement is easy to fix, almost every wrong stroke comes from the legs not the hands. 


Edited by hunkeelin - 07/04/2018 at 3:49pm
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