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ML-FZD warming up/training

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    Posted: 06/05/2018 at 11:34pm
This is a very good video from TTD. Its quality is excellent too. There is so much to observe about fh and bh technique, it is so mesmerizing I could watch all night. Okay...Okay... better go play.




Edited by fatt - 06/05/2018 at 11:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 10:33pm
Please watch the video starting at 18 seconds when FZD starts looping, maximize your window and lower the speed to 0.25 (click the gear at the bottom of the window, click speed then 0.25). In the end of the backswing, FZD twists his wrist counterclockwise to show more his forehand rubber: is it an idiosyncrasy or a voluntary move to add value? if the latter, what kind?

Edited by fatt - 06/08/2018 at 9:23am
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There's some added value. Internally rotating the shoulder like that decreases rotator cuff resistance and increases range of motion on the backswing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 11:18pm
Thanks for the video, fatt. It's always nice watching the top players practice. Their technique is mesmerizing!

Whenever I see the top Chinese players counter looping from a distance, they always bring their racket very close to just behind their leg. Usually the racket is extremely close to the body and barely avoids hitting their quads.

I feel like if he had his wrist angled like how he does right before he swings forward (FH rubber facing the opponent more) during the backswing, the racket would hit his leg. Because his racket head is facing the opponent during his backswing, it can past very close to his leg and not hit it.

I don't know why they do it, just something I notice most of them do.

EDIT: Also, having the racket head pointing forward, you'll be fighting less against air resistance, right? Since you'll be decreasing the surface area the air is contacting in the direction of movement. Not sure if that's a big deal, but maybe it is.


Edited by mickd - 06/07/2018 at 11:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Please watch the video starting at 18 seconds when FZD starts looping, maximize your window and lower the speed to 0.25 (click the gear at the bottom of the window, click speed then 0.25). In the end of the backswing, FZD twists his wrist counterclockwise to show more his forehand rubber: is it an idiosynchracy or a voluntary move to add value? if the latter, what kind?
I saw that too, but to my poor eyes it looks like he is just bringing the racket back and delaying pronation of the forearm until he starts the forward swing.

Here's another FZD video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5s1KhIFww
About 27 seconds into it you can view his forehand from a different angle from the video above. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:


Whenever I see the top Chinese players counter looping from a distance, they always bring their racket very close to just behind their leg. Usually the racket is extremely close to the body and barely avoids hitting their quads.

I see a lot of Chinese players (non-pro's, but still highly skilled) do that, even when they are not counter looping. For example when trying to crush a long, not too fast serve, but they are close to the table, or attacking blocked shots.


Edited by Ieyasu - 06/07/2018 at 11:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 12:49am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks for the video, fatt. It's always nice watching the top players practice. Their technique is mesmerizing!

Whenever I see the top Chinese players counter looping from a distance, they always bring their racket very close to just behind their leg. Usually the racket is extremely close to the body and barely avoids hitting their quads.

I feel like if he had his wrist angled like how he does right before he swings forward (FH rubber facing the opponent more) during the backswing, the racket would hit his leg. Because his racket head is facing the opponent during his backswing, it can past very close to his leg and not hit it.

I don't know why they do it, just something I notice most of them do.

EDIT: Also, having the racket head pointing forward, you'll be fighting less against air resistance, right? Since you'll be decreasing the surface area the air is contacting in the direction of movement. Not sure if that's a big deal, but maybe it is.

They have extremely little arm backswing in general which is why it stays close to their thighs. The backswing is all generated by their core and legs. This both increases power, control and reduces the recovery time.

The little wrist movement at the end you mentioned is very useful because it forces your wrist to be relaxed before winding up for the concentrated release of power. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 2:01am
Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

There's some added value. Internally rotating the shoulder like that decreases rotator cuff resistance and increases range of motion on the backswing.


Good catch by Fatt.Thumbs Up

I always noted the similar back-swing as done by players with quick strokes. However, I never noticed that little 'loosener' just before the strike. The fact that you mentioned the added physical benefit for the shoulder is something that should added to the coaching manuals.

I wonder if Baal will see this and comment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 3:27am
Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

There's some added value. Internally rotating the shoulder like that decreases rotator cuff resistance and increases range of motion on the backswing.

Is there any difference between the way ML and FZD are rotating their shoulders? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 3:42am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


The little wrist movement at the end you mentioned is very useful because it forces your wrist to be relaxed before winding up for the concentrated release of power. 


Nice. How is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 9:16am
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


The little wrist movement at the end you mentioned is very useful because it forces your wrist to be relaxed before winding up for the concentrated release of power. 


Nice. How is that?

It's similar to other muscles too, you have to exert them just at the right moment, not too early and not too late! 

If your wrist is going into extension much earlier, you stiffen up your forearms and that reduces the explosiveness of the wrist movement in your stroke. It's much better to let it drop and "hang", and explode into the ball only at the very last moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 9:23am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

There's some added value. Internally rotating the shoulder like that decreases rotator cuff resistance and increases range of motion on the backswing.

Is there any difference between the way ML and FZD are rotating their shoulders? 

I personally think FZD's stroke is a more advanced stroke than Ma Long's, he utilises the power of arm pronation and supination (if you read up on it it's one of the most explosive power sources and is pretty much fundamental in badminton to increase power) much better. He uses them to close the racket angle aggressively, which is why he gets huge amounts of power even in cramped positions. 

It's not just FZD, but if you look at the younger women's generation like Zhu Yuling and Wang Manyu, they also have this "newer" looking stroke. 

Ma Long's stroke has a much more "fixed" racket angle and is from an older school of technique imo. Still serves his purposes well though, as most power comes from the waist and legs anyway...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:


Whenever I see the top Chinese players counter looping from a distance, they always bring their racket very close to just behind their leg. Usually the racket is extremely close to the body and barely avoids hitting their quads.

I see a lot of Chinese players (non-pro's, but still highly skilled) do that, even when they are not counter looping. For example when trying to crush a long, not too fast serve, but they are close to the table, or attacking blocked shots.
 Seriously, you think that only Chinese players do that ? I do it myself !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 5:03pm
Good catch Fatt.  I don't think it adds any thing to the swing though, maybe his FH is still under developed like Harimoto Big smile.

Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5s1KhIFww.  From this angle, looks like he is trying to keep the arm close to the body on the back swing, and causes the twist at the end of the swing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Good catch Fatt.  I don't think it adds any thing to the swing though, maybe his FH is still under developed like Harimoto Big smile.

Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5s1KhIFww.  From this angle, looks like he is trying to keep the arm close to the body on the back swing, and causes the twist at the end of the swing.

the above video shows his backswing from inside and outside angles.  having seen it from the outside I could say this the way a lot the CNT do their backswing . 
 This video 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDewVsryESU 
explains why ML backswings like that.


Edited by tom - 06/08/2018 at 6:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Good catch Fatt.  I don't think it adds any thing to the swing though, maybe his FH is still under developed like Harimoto Big smile.

Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5s1KhIFww.  From this angle, looks like he is trying to keep the arm close to the body on the back swing, and causes the twist at the end of the swing.



You must be joking....FZD has an underdeveloped FH?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 This video 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDewVsryESU 
explains why ML backswings like that.

Except it was in Chinese... here is another video of ML's swing: https://www.facebook.com/ITTFWorld/videos/2224311570932167/
And a detailed analysis, in English, from Larry Hodges: http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog/3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 This video 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDewVsryESU 
explains why ML backswings like that.

Except above video is in Chinese... here is another video of ML's swing: https://www.facebook.com/ITTFWorld/videos/2224311570932167/
And a detailed analysis, in English, from Larry Hodges: http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog/3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Good catch Fatt.  I don't think it adds any thing to the swing though, maybe his FH is still under developed like Harimoto Big smile.

Here is another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5s1KhIFww.  From this angle, looks like he is trying to keep the arm close to the body on the back swing, and causes the twist at the end of the swing.



You must be joking....FZD has an underdeveloped FH?
he was LOL

no kidding, FZD's fh is great, unlike the overrated Ma Long’s.


Edited by fatt - 06/11/2018 at 8:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 This video 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDewVsryESU 
explains why ML backswings like that.

Except it was in Chinese... here is another video of ML's swing: https://www.facebook.com/ITTFWorld/videos/2224311570932167/
And a detailed analysis, in English, from Larry Hodges: http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog/3
good video but LH didn't really explain why the CNT / ML backswing is the way it is.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2018 at 12:26am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 This video 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDewVsryESU 
explains why ML backswings like that.

Except it was in Chinese... here is another video of ML's swing: https://www.facebook.com/ITTFWorld/videos/2224311570932167/
And a detailed analysis, in English, from Larry Hodges: http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog/3
good video but LH didn't really explain why the CNT / ML backswing is the way it is.  
True. He explains the purpose of the movements, but not why. I'd love to hear somebody (who is qualified) expound on the advantages and disadvantages of the different styles. 

Maybe if somebody asked LH he could take a shot at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:24am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 This video 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDewVsryESU 
explains why ML backswings like that.

Except it was in Chinese... here is another video of ML's swing: https://www.facebook.com/ITTFWorld/videos/2224311570932167/
And a detailed analysis, in English, from Larry Hodges: http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog/3
good video but LH didn't really explain why the CNT / ML backswing is the way it is.  
True. He explains the purpose of the movements, but not why. I'd love to hear somebody (who is qualified) expound on the advantages and disadvantages of the different styles. 

Maybe if somebody asked LH he could take a shot at it.
I thought I did explain much of it. For example, above someone commented on how many top Chinese players backswing with their racket very close to their body. I explained that, "Arm is close to body. This allows more quickness in the backswing. If you hold it out, it slows you down." 
Here's the direct link to the Ma Long Forehand Loop posting. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 06/12/2018 at 12:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:46am
Thanks for responding Larry!

I think part of the issue on this thread is the supposed differences between ML's and FZD's swings. For example Blahness writes:

"I personally think FZD's stroke is a more advanced stroke than Ma Long's, he utilises the power of arm pronation and supination (if you read up on it it's one of the most explosive power sources and is pretty much fundamental in badminton to increase power) much better. He uses them to close the racket angle aggressively, which is why he gets huge amounts of power even in cramped positions. "

"
It's not just FZD, but if you look at the younger women's generation like Zhu Yuling and Wang Manyu, they also have this "newer" looking stroke. "

Mikd wrote:

"I feel like if he had his wrist angled like how he does right before he swings forward (FH rubber facing the opponent more) during the backswing, the racket would hit his leg. Because his racket head is facing the opponent during his backswing, it can past very close to his leg and not hit it.

"I don't know why they do it, just something I notice most of them do.

"EDIT: Also, having the racket head pointing forward, you'll be fighting less against air resistance, right? Since you'll be decreasing the surface area the air is contacting in the direction of movement. Not sure if that's a big deal, but maybe it is."

To me it merely looks like FZD is delaying supination of forearm and wrist.

Do you have any comments about this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:54am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Thanks for responding Larry!

I think part of the issue on this thread is the supposed differences between ML's and FZD's swings. For example Blahness writes:

"I personally think FZD's stroke is a more advanced stroke than Ma Long's, he utilises the power of arm pronation and supination (if you read up on it it's one of the most explosive power sources and is pretty much fundamental in badminton to increase power) much better. He uses them to close the racket angle aggressively, which is why he gets huge amounts of power even in cramped positions. "

"
It's not just FZD, but if you look at the younger women's generation like Zhu Yuling and Wang Manyu, they also have this "newer" looking stroke. "

Mikd wrote:

"I feel like if he had his wrist angled like how he does right before he swings forward (FH rubber facing the opponent more) during the backswing, the racket would hit his leg. Because his racket head is facing the opponent during his backswing, it can past very close to his leg and not hit it.

"I don't know why they do it, just something I notice most of them do.

"EDIT: Also, having the racket head pointing forward, you'll be fighting less against air resistance, right? Since you'll be decreasing the surface area the air is contacting in the direction of movement. Not sure if that's a big deal, but maybe it is."

To me it merely looks like FZD is delaying supination of forearm and wrist.

Do you have any comments about this?
Unfortunately, I'm going out of town Thursday morning for 3.5 weeks and have way too many things on my todo list before I leave. Maybe after I return I'll watch videos of Fan and Ma Long together and blog about the differences and why. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 1:11am
Thanks again Larry for taking the time and courtesy to let us know you may respond, time permitting, in the not so distant future.

I read your blog everyday, so I'll catch it if you address the issue. 
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