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White powder on pips out

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    Posted: 06/11/2018 at 10:02am
Ok...don't want to mention any names or anything, but over the weekend I went to a tournament with the top 2 players at our club. One of them does not have a rating but I estimate his rating to be around 2450 - 2500. His opponent played with short pips on the FH (TSP Super Spin Pips), and inverted on the BH. His opponent has only played in a couple of tournaments in the US and was rated over 2400.

So the first game was a tight one, but my club's player won the 1st game. After that his opponent walked back over to their seat with their racket in hand and complained to a high level (+2500) teammate that due to the humidity the pips weren't grabbing the ball very well. It was not humid at all I should note.

The next thing this person did really surprised me as I've never seen anyone do this, especially during a match. They pulled out a bag of white powder, kind of like a rosin bag, and poured this white powder all over the pips. Then instead of cleaning it off with a brush, they just rubbed their hand on the pips a little and then walked back out to play. I complained about it to the umpire down at the control desk, but they didn't see it so they couldn't do anything about it. My teammate didn't see it either so didn't complain about it. This player then went on to win the next 2 games easily. You could even see the white powder all over the black sheet of short pips they were playing with.

Their teammate told me this is a common thing players in the pro circuit do. I've never heard of this and the umpire did find the rule that states you can't clean your racket during the match. Oh well, next time will get the umpire immediately.

My point is though, it seems to me that pouring white powder all over your rubber, then not cleaning it off very well would definitely affect the play of the ball, especially in between games.

Any thoughts on this? Now I know why we have the rule in place that you have to leave your racket on the table between games.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 10:57am
Magic white powder

It's only in TT that you have oven baking, glues and now white powder, all in the pursuit of a victory.... Careful or people might think we're into some shady stuff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 12:09pm
It is chalk. Pips players normally use this to deal with the humidity. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Shiro Shiro wrote:

It is chalk. Pips players normally use this to deal with the humidity. 


same chalk used to write?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 1:06pm
I understand it's some type of substance to help deal with humidity, but you can't pour this on your pips during the match! This player also did not use a brush to brush it off. They simply wiped it with their hands so you could see the white powder was covering the rubber beneath the pips. This surely would affect the play of the ball during a match. I would think it would make the rubber a little more frictionless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

I understand it's some type of substance to help deal with humidity, but you can't pour this on your pips during the match! This player also did not use a brush to brush it off. They simply wiped it with their hands so you could see the white powder was covering the rubber beneath the pips. This surely would affect the play of the ball during a match. I would think it would make the rubber a little more frictionless.



I read sometime ago that somebody saw ding yi doing this but using a dark powder
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 1:35pm
What do you mean the umpire didn't see it? You mean not seeing the act of pouring the powder? But wouldn't the white residue on the rubber still be there to be seen?

Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Ok...don't want to mention any names or anything, but over the weekend I went to a tournament with the top 2 players at our club. One of them does not have a rating but I estimate his rating to be around 2450 - 2500. His opponent played with short pips on the FH (TSP Super Spin Pips), and inverted on the BH. His opponent has only played in a couple of tournaments in the US and was rated over 2400.

So the first game was a tight one, but my club's player won the 1st game. After that his opponent walked back over to their seat with their racket in hand and complained to a high level (+2500) teammate that due to the humidity the pips weren't grabbing the ball very well. It was not humid at all I should note.

The next thing this person did really surprised me as I've never seen anyone do this, especially during a match. They pulled out a bag of white powder, kind of like a rosin bag, and poured this white powder all over the pips. Then instead of cleaning it off with a brush, they just rubbed their hand on the pips a little and then walked back out to play. I complained about it to the umpire down at the control desk, but they didn't see it so they couldn't do anything about it. My teammate didn't see it either so didn't complain about it. This player then went on to win the next 2 games easily. You could even see the white powder all over the black sheet of short pips they were playing with.

Their teammate told me this is a common thing players in the pro circuit do. I've never heard of this and the umpire did find the rule that states you can't clean your racket during the match. Oh well, next time will get the umpire immediately.

My point is though, it seems to me that pouring white powder all over your rubber, then not cleaning it off very well would definitely affect the play of the ball, especially in between games.

Any thoughts on this? Now I know why we have the rule in place that you have to leave your racket on the table between games.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 1:49pm
The chalk is to absorb the wetness on the rubber, as you cannot wipe pip dry like inverted.  However, it should be done before match, specially at tournament between such high level of players.  OTH it would be like cleaning your invert rubber between game, I would not mind if the other player do it (for example his sweat drop on the rubber, and he cannot wipe it off).

Edited by mhnh007 - 06/11/2018 at 1:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 3:10pm
the match didn't have an umpire, so he didn't see it. I informed the tournament director/umpire and he walked down later and checked it out. I was just very disappointed to see someone that high of a level do something like this and then not even use a brush to wipe it off. When he did check out the racket he noticed the powder and he told that player they couldn't do that during the match. Lesson learned, get an umpire immediately if you have a question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fortunateluck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 3:41pm
Wow, interesting... But, it's not like the powder can play for him or give magic powers. I can only imagine that since he had the powder already, it's not an unusual thing for him to do that. All it can do is let him play his level. Perhaps he was a higher level player.

Anyways, did he win?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 3:42pm
He supposed to put the chalk on, play with it before the match.  The chalk should to fall off by itself, as the rubber dries, similar to the powder on the brand new ball.  This should be done before the 2 mins warm up prior to the start of the match.

Edited by mhnh007 - 06/11/2018 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Magic white powder

It's only in TT that you have oven baking, glues and now white powder, all in the pursuit of a victory.... Careful or people might think we're into some shady stuff

Magic white powder?  Verrrry interesting.  

I'm familiar with oven baking and microwaving, glues legal and otherwise, and ingenious if nefarious practices such as leaving one's rubber inside the trunk of an automobile, but the magic white powder I must confess I've never come across.  

Perhaps table tennis history is repeating itself.  In the bygone battledore days, prehistoric attackers were said to have souped up their "banjo" bats with emory powder so as to better "screw" (spin) the ball.

Emory powder is readily sold on eBay.  It is not particularly expensive, and if you're a short pips player playing under humid conditions and suddenly find that the spin capability of your rubber has gone south, emory powder just might be the solution you're looking for. Clap 


Tennis anyone?

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Edited by berndt_mann - 06/11/2018 at 3:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 4:00pm
He won the first game before they poured the white powder on. Then after the first game loss she poured the powder on and won the next 2 games. He kept looping everything into the net. The 4th game got back to being more competitive and he lost it 12-10. You could tell it started to wear off a little after the next 2 games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2018 at 10:35pm
2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment.

putting a foreign substance on the racquet covering during the match is a far cry from wiping sweat off.


Edited by icontek - 06/11/2018 at 10:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:28am
Australians take cleaners to the towel box and use between games 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:29am
Do you think it is like the weight lifters hand powder?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:58am
hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.

Edited by Egghead - 06/12/2018 at 12:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 8:25am
yeah I'd like to see someone do an experiment where they pour on one of these white powder dryers in between games to see how it affects performance. Make sure you don't wipe it off with a brush or anything, just rub it into the pips with your hands a couple of times then go play with it. Play a game without using it, then pour some on in between games. Would love to hear how it affects performance. Also it was some Chinese powder. Does anyone know what they use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 8:43am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.

No, not BP. BP will make LP slippery. I think they use Gym Chalk, which absorbs moisture, but not slippery, especially on SP, you want grips, not slippery. The problem with applying it right before or during the match is that it gets transferred to the ball, and maybe other guys rubbers, and reduce the spin. That could explain why op’s friend looped into the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.

No, not BP. BP will make LP slippery. I think they use Gym Chalk, which absorbs moisture, but not slippery, especially on SP, you want grips, not slippery. The problem with applying it right before or during the match is that it gets transferred to the ball, and maybe other guys rubbers, and reduce the spin. That could explain why op’s friend looped into the net.


is there a legal way to reduce moisture effect in short pips? maybe heating up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.

No, not BP. BP will make LP slippery. I think they use Gym Chalk, which absorbs moisture, but not slippery, especially on SP, you want grips, not slippery. The problem with applying it right before or during the match is that it gets transferred to the ball, and maybe other guys rubbers, and reduce the spin. That could explain why op’s friend looped into the net.
slippery LPs, now I must try the BP on LPsTongueTongueTongueTongueTongueTongueTongue


Edited by Egghead - 06/12/2018 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 1:03pm
CHULK ... CLIMBING CHULK.

https://frictionlabs.com/blog/how-to-use-chalk-for-rock-climbing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_carbonate#Uses

There is no mistery about the "white stuff".   It is well known as climbing chalk being made of Magnesium carbonate,
Don't confuse it with the school chulk made mostly of calcium.

Yes, applying a powder onto rubbers is an illegal practice forbidden by the Rule 2.4.7
T9 Racket Control Leaflet does have a special provision to prevent such a powdering on the pips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2018 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.
I saw a close pix of her rubber, I don't think there was white powder, can you show us
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2018 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.

No, not BP. BP will make LP slippery. I think they use Gym Chalk, which absorbs moisture, but not slippery, especially on SP, you want grips, not slippery. The problem with applying it right before or during the match is that it gets transferred to the ball, and maybe other guys rubbers, and reduce the spin. That could explain why op’s friend looped into the net.


I think that's what happened. I think some powder probably got onto the ball and caused it to lose some of it's grip, thus making the ball go into the net when he looped.

That brings me to this thought, is this person doing this to intentionally cause problems? I would hope a player at this level would be above using tactics like this if they were doing it intentionally. Whether or not they did it on purpose to disrupt their opponent, I learned a valuable lesson from this. Next time I'm playing someone in a tournament I will definitely tell them to leave their racket at the table in-between games, and if I see someone doing it on the side I will immediately get an umpire or if it's a teammate playing a match and I see something like this, I will let them know so they can call for an umpire. Too bad I didn't tell him to call an umpire before he started the game. The outcome might have been different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2018 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Magic white powder

It's only in TT that you have oven baking, glues and now white powder, all in the pursuit of a victory.... Careful or people might think we're into some shady stuff
 

In baseball, some pitchers have been caught using tar and all sorts of things to improve their grip on the ball. 

Tar on the glove, behind the ear or on their forearm... very much illegal. Should be the same way in TT. 

As for OP, im pretty sure this player was using the powder internationally to disrupt their opponent. Any sort of powder on inverted rubber (tacky or non tacky) will have an effect on the grip of the ball. This is why Ovtcharov cleans new poly balls with his mouth, to get rid of the new ball powder. LOL


Edited by DreiZ - 06/13/2018 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2018 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

hmm, very very interesting, when Batra got both gold metals at the CGWs, her LPs was dirty and was with some white power. I will try to put some bp on my LPs this weekend and see.
I saw a close pix of her rubber, I don't think there was white powder, can you show us
I know this is not a good one; I remember I saw a pic that it showed her blade on the table. Anyway,  I stand corrected if I am wrong Embarrassed
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2018 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:


That brings me to this thought, is this person doing this to intentionally cause problems?
Think this is more of a case of ignorance than cheating, as you stated in the OP that this person only played for a couple of tournament in US.  It maybe more acceptable elsewhere IDK.  Did your friend brought it up with this person that nothing should be applied to the rubber during match?  Hopefully, at least, it does not happen again the next time. 
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