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US open dec 17-22

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 12:06pm
With kids and adults combined like in past, bad seeding (due to under rating) could send a lot of adults down to levels where the rest of their matches are not that competitive. Of course if it happens to enough adults the lower level will actually be competitive.

Wonder how many of those highly underrated kids will play in the elite division instead of performance division?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SpiritualEnigma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 3:30pm
I'm with ericd here. I'm not high rated so this tournament is just throwing away $275 or $350. I have 0 chance of winning anything to compensate for the entry cost.  I'd have to be in the top 4 spots to get any prize money in either singles or doubles for all of men. There's no way I'll be able to hold my own in a bracket with 2500+ rating men. I live in Orlando and I'm not entering due to this tournament format. I'm not even sure if I'm going to go to even watch. $15/day + daily parking fee. I didn't know table tennis was such a popular sport in America that we have to even charge spectators that much
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 3:51pm
I do not understand why they split Elite and not elite. 
Lets say i won non- elite US open I cannot claim that i am US champion. Subjective split at 2400 level, why not 2000 or 2200 ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 3:59pm
I dont like not to have a chance to play elite players. At NA north team I had that opportunity......
if 2400 is cut off does that imply that i will be playing in performance with all who below 2400? if it is a case no reason even participate


Edited by osmar92 - 09/15/2018 at 4:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 7:32pm
If one can't enter both elite and performance, does that imply that a 13 year old can't play both mini cadet and cadet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by SpiritualEnigma SpiritualEnigma wrote:

I'm with ericd here. I'm not high rated so this tournament is just throwing away $275 or $350. I have 0 chance of winning anything to compensate for the entry cost.  I'd have to be in the top 4 spots to get any prize money in either singles or doubles for all of men. There's no way I'll be able to hold my own in a bracket with 2500+ rating men. I live in Orlando and I'm not entering due to this tournament format. I'm not even sure if I'm going to go to even watch. $15/day + daily parking fee. I didn't know table tennis was such a popular sport in America that we have to even charge spectators that much

How does new format impact you then? You had 0 chance to win any meaningful money before as well, given you are 'not high rated'... I suspect bulk of participants attended US Open/Nationals not because they expected to turn a profit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 11:23pm
After reading the FAQ's, I think the concept will work.  It's different for sure, but it looks like we can still play lots of matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by SpiritualEnigma SpiritualEnigma wrote:

I'm with ericd here. I'm not high rated so this tournament is just throwing away $275 or $350. I have 0 chance of winning anything to compensate for the entry cost.  I'd have to be in the top 4 spots to get any prize money in either singles or doubles for all of men. There's no way I'll be able to hold my own in a bracket with 2500+ rating men. I live in Orlando and I'm not entering due to this tournament format. I'm not even sure if I'm going to go to even watch. $15/day + daily parking fee. I didn't know table tennis was such a popular sport in America that we have to even charge spectators that much

How does new format impact you then? You had 0 chance to win any meaningful money before as well, given you are 'not high rated'... I suspect bulk of participants attended US Open/Nationals not because they expected to turn a profit. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paladin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 12:12am
Someone who is older than a mini-cadet and under 30 can only play 1 singles age event in the performance track, unless I am missing something.

Will anything be done to solve this? One possible solution is to modify the mini-cadet age classification to instead be 'mini-cadet and older'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 12:31am
Originally posted by paladin paladin wrote:

Someone who is older than a mini-cadet and under 30 can only play 1 singles age event in the performance track, unless I am missing something.

Will anything be done to solve this? One possible solution is to modify the mini-cadet age classification to instead be 'mini-cadet and older'.


It looks like you can only do the performance and the over 20's in singles and doubles.  It looks like this really benefits hardbat/sandpaper players with 20 events of their own. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 12:59am
Trying to figure out number of matches in performance track.

Singles:
1st tiered RR - 5 matches (based on stated 6 player groups)
2nd tiered RR - 4 matches (guessing 5 player groups)
3rd tiered RR - 3 matches (guessing 4 player groups)

1st age RR - 3
2nd age RR - 3
1st age SE - 1
2nd age SE - 1

Total - 20 singles matches

In the old system for U2000 players, you got 9 matches in Super Tiered RR and 15 matches in 5 rating events. So about 24 singles matches.
If you were over 2000 you might have had less since there were not 5 rating events to enter. Do not remember if over 2000 had eqivalent of Super Tiered or not.

For Doubles:
1ST tiered RR - 4 matches (guessing groups of 5)
2nd tiered RR - 3 matches (guessing groups of 4)
1st age RR - 4
2nd age RR - 4

Total - 15

Bonus matches if playing mixed doubles.

Am I anywhere close to estimating this correctly?

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 9:43am
I'm still not sure if the entry form/format is more complicated than previous years or if it's much simpler but so different that it seems complicated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 10:14am
Larry - it does seem more complicated than in the past because we were really trying to explain a lot of things in the new format...in the Past, it was just “circle the vents you want” - with such a big change we felt it was important to explain more.

For thenkthers, I wil get back to you later!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 10:16am
@mts - yes! And more importantly the idea is to play more “significant” matches...more matches against people at or
Around your level...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 10:33am
Hi,

It appears we have both a practical and philosophical challenge with the event structure at the U.S. Open.

Well recognized is the very weak association of player performance level by age.  The nature of the sport allows 60 year old beginners and 17 year old professional players.  

I reviewed the latest ten tournament postings on the USATT events website.  Every tournament is overwhelmingly structured for rating events, typically round robins, followed by single elimination.  We have before us with these tournaments the "wisdom of the crowds."  The metric of "number of matches" has validity in estimating the quality of the tournament experience, however the competitive quality of the matches is of greater importance.  

For all the legitimate limitations and concerns of the USATT rating system, it stands as the best means of grouping players by their level of play, thus significantly improving the probability of competitive matches, that is, matches in which a player has a reasonable chance of winning.  There is no formulated alternative system that approaches the effectiveness of the USATT rating system for creating competitive events.

The U.S. Open is prominently a USATT tournament, not a dedicated international such as the ITTF holds.  The best structure for the U.S. Open events is a quite discrete delineation between international and USATT events, with the USATT component featuring rating events.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 10:41am
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

I dont like not to have a chance to play elite players. At NA north team I had that opportunity......
if 2400 is cut off does that imply that i will be playing in performance with all who below 2400? if it is a case no reason even participate

I guess it depends on what the folks who are eligible for Elite decide to do: highly rated veterans like He Zhi Wen, Dan Seemiller etc. - do they go after main prize or choose to play events in Performance division? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

@mts - yes! And more importantly the idea is to play more “significant” matches...more matches against people at or
Around your level...

Somewhat unrelated question to Gordy: how would you know this new format is a success? This upcoming US Open made two large changes at once: location and format. It will be hard to draw any meaningful conclusions if it did not do well, no? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 1:37pm
@pgpg - there are a few measures - most importantly simply by asking people is a good way to find a lot out! Probably surveys as well...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

It appears we have both a practical and philosophical challenge with the event structure at the U.S. Open.

Well recognized is the very weak association of player performance level by age.  The nature of the sport allows 60 year old beginners and 17 year old professional players.  

I reviewed the latest ten tournament postings on the USATT events website.  Every tournament is overwhelmingly structured for rating events, typically round robins, followed by single elimination.  We have before us with these tournaments the "wisdom of the crowds."  The metric of "number of matches" has validity in estimating the quality of the tournament experience, however the competitive quality of the matches is of greater importance.  

For all the legitimate limitations and concerns of the USATT rating system, it stands as the best means of grouping players by their level of play, thus significantly improving the probability of competitive matches, that is, matches in which a player has a reasonable chance of winning.  There is no formulated alternative system that approaches the effectiveness of the USATT rating system for creating competitive events.

The U.S. Open is prominently a USATT tournament, not a dedicated international such as the ITTF holds.  The best structure for the U.S. Open events is a quite discrete delineation between international and USATT events, with the USATT component featuring rating events.

Thanks

As a devils advocate to your reasoning, the senior games, veteran games and others of that sort, are grouped into age brackets and have heavy participation.  Granted most are not USATT sanctioned but are definitely attended by a majority of USATT members. The NA teams tournament, very highly attended, does not stay with the formula you are advocating.  I am also not sure whether the past USATT tournament models should be the standard that needs to be continually emulated. It is not like table tennis in the US is knocking the socks off of our general public.  Viewing most table tennis association tournaments worldwide, they seem substantially different. And in these countries, the sport of table tennis is vastly more popular.  I am not saying there is a correlation and I not saying isn't one either.  I think trying something outside the box might be worth the risk from what seems a stagnant format.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

I dont like not to have a chance to play elite players. At NA north team I had that opportunity......
if 2400 is cut off does that imply that i will be playing in performance with all who below 2400? if it is a case no reason even participate

I guess it depends on what the folks who are eligible for Elite decide to do: highly rated veterans like He Zhi Wen, Dan Seemiller etc. - do they go after main prize or choose to play events in Performance division? 

still if some decide to pursue performance track there will be far And few between and i will will be playing low rated player, for me it is not not US open
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 2:17pm
if there is cut off line it is similar to playing an event under 2400 with some variatons
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

I dont like not to have a chance to play elite players. At NA north team I had that opportunity......
if 2400 is cut off does that imply that i will be playing in performance with all who below 2400? if it is a case no reason even participate

I guess it depends on what the folks who are eligible for Elite decide to do: highly rated veterans like He Zhi Wen, Dan Seemiller etc. - do they go after main prize or choose to play events in Performance division? 

still if some decide to pursue performance track there will be far And few between and i will will be playing low rated player, for me it is not not US open

Can I point out the irony that what you feel about playing "low rated players", The elite players may feel the same about playing you, so if the US Open is tailored for you, you may ruin the US Open experience for the elite players as they would have to play you, a "lower rated player".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 2:48pm
This format may hurt the player that plays only the upper divisions with the intention of picking off higher rated players without risking their precious rating points.  We all like to play better players.  With this format you better win your early matches or you'll end up playing players at your level or below. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 3:00pm
Osmar92,

Can you tell us your rating. If you are 2350 I can sympathize with your situation. If you are 2000 I just do not understand why you would enjoy playing 2600 players.

I am just the opposite. At 1865, I hate playing 2400+ players because I feel I am just wasting their time and energy. At my level difference you usually do not even get to see their 2400 game.

But if that is what you enjoy about a tournament, I understand you not wanting to go.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 4:21pm
highest 2360, now 2277, i beat players over 2400-2500. but regardless of that it is always interesting to lose to elite players, it is an experience
I played quite competitive against Habersohn


Edited by osmar92 - 09/16/2018 at 4:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

highest 2360, now 2277, i beat players over 2400-2500. but regardless of that it is always interesting to lose to elite players, it is an experience
I played quite competitive against Habersohn


That helps clarify your situation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 6:05pm
at least what I would suggest is to have qualifications for elite division as it is done in major competition. If anyone wanna compete at elite level give one an opportunity!

Edited by osmar92 - 09/16/2018 at 6:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

@mts - yes! And more importantly the idea is to play more “significant” matches...more matches against people at or
Around your level...

Somewhat unrelated question to Gordy: how would you know this new format is a success? This upcoming US Open made two large changes at once: location and format. It will be hard to draw any meaningful conclusions if it did not do well, no? 

This is the best point made so far. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

at least what I would suggest is to have qualifications for elite division as it is done in major competition. If anyone wanna compete at elite level give one an opportunity!

One other option is to allow Elite participants to play in Performance events. Talked to a father of our best junior today, and he mentioned that there would be not enough events for him to play in (especially when one thinks about the total cost to attend).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2018 at 11:09pm
Hello, all...I will try to catch up but I might miss some...

@pgpg - the best way for us to measure success is by talking to people - and possibly a post-event survey. Seems to me the best way to measure success is by asking AFTER the event to see if we accomplished what we set out to do. We also need to look at the number of conflicts (which has been a HUGE problem in the past) and see if this has the affect that we are looking for (no conflicts!). Obviously the big question mark is Orlando - we will see whether we are able to draw numbers on the east coast as we did in Las Vegas/west coast...but I have been hearing for years that "we need an event on the east coast" so my hope is that those people are able to pack the place.

@osmar - your immediate conclusion that you are only going to play bad players I believe is misguided. Other than the first day, you will ONLY play in your "seeding bracket" (or division), so you should get a lot of quality matches in the tiered event alone. Then we separated the SE to a championship division in the age groups, so while you might get a lower rated player in the RR, once you move into the championship division you should be playing a higher level of player. 

In the past, let's say you played the U2400 and Open. That's a maximum of 6 matches guaranteed, and there is no guarantee in either of those events you would be playing as many people at or around your level. The whole concept behind the Tiered Ratings event is to get people playing more important matches - not just matches for the sake of playing matches.

Also @osmar if you really want to get into the elite division, you will notice that we change the qualification criteria so that you can be over 2400 at any time between October 1 and November 15 - that means you still have the opportunity to get in by qualification rating.

@mjmama - I agree that it makes no sense for an 1800 player to play multiple matches against 2200+ players - I am not sure about you, but I would (personally) rather play 8 or 9 really good matches against people at or around my level then play 3 at my level and 6 significantly better or worse than me. Take a typical 1800-level player. Under the old format, you could enter the under 1900 (where you might have a chance to advance) but because that was only 3 matches, you had to enter the 2100, 2200, and 2300 just to feel like you got your money's worth. Is that a good tournament experience? Forcing someone to play at a level where they are not always competitive? Of course in the new format if the 1800 player is playing at a 2100 level, they have a chance to get into that level of play on Monday (in the "seeding" tournament) making it more competitive for all. I have heard over and over that so many people enjoy that aspect of the STRR - and I look at this event as very similar other than it is a 3 day/15 match event rather than a 1 day/10 match event. 

@clann - thanks, and I agree - something out of the box was necessary. We tried to look at the US Open from the perspective of so many different types of players. For full disclosure, the ONLY player we could not figure out 100% was the 20-29 non-elite player, and it is absolutely something we need to look at for the future but at the same time it is BY FAR our lowest participation age category. It is NOT an excuse and as I said, we have to find a solution to this type of player - but it just was not something we could figure out (For those of you who are wondering what I am talking about, the 20-29 player only gets one age singles and one age doubles whereas the other age groups get to play in two). One of the thing we looked at was making the group sizes bigger in the 20+ age group, but everything was blown to bits because remember the 30+ player is still allowed to play in the 20+ age group - meaning that was not a workable solution. The we looked at not letting 30+ player play in the 20+ (and enlarging the 20+ event), but then the 30+ player had the same problem. Again, this is absolutely something we will continue to work on.

For those who think that the "Classic" player "wins" (I can't remember who it was) because there are so many events. If you consider that most classic events have no more than 20 players - and most have between 8-14 - the classic player gets significantly less play in each event. Also note that 6 or 7 of the events are gender specific, so the list isn't really 20 events.

I am sure I missed some of the questions - so please feel free to ask again OR email me at Gordon.Kaye@usatt.org

Thanks
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