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    Posted: 08/22/2018 at 11:23am
[Also note that the 48% speed loss is based on my arm measurements and on the assumption that the upper arm is straight down for v1 and straight out for v2.  In reality, I suspect that neither is common, but having the arm fairly extended at contact is good for power.  Having the elbow close to the body at contact is a great way to lose power.

bes]

Bes' submission is making an important contribution here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2018 at 5:57pm
It seems to me Harimoto's forehand is a combination of the Chinese and European forehand technique. He gets power from huge body rotation even more than the usual Chinese technique and he then uses a bent arm forehand like many Europeans. If he has time it is not a short stroke like many people comment on. I liked the comment that he is strong on elbow shots as this is a key target of the pros. Give him a few years and it will be very interesting to see how he develops this shot.


Edited by maurice101 - 08/21/2018 at 5:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

When Harimoto started playing in pro tournaments his forehand was not strong enough to generate much power on his own relative to the older/bigger players so he "borrows" power from the incoming shot and redirects as Larry pointed out. It's more of a counter hit/drive and is optimized more towards low cycle time rather than spin and speed. There is a clear difference between his current stroke technique and that of the ML and FZD. But I think this reflects a different approach by the coaching and player development systems as a lot of the JPN players have that close to the table block and fast counter-attack style, whereas the CN players tend mix in more big drive loops. 

I also have a question with regard to the "new style"  of play due to the nature of the new ball. 

What happened in the Australian & Bulgarian open finals? 

If HT is the way forward and spinning the ball and using big drive FHs is outdated then why did XX pretty much dominate HT and KM?

Here is one comparison of stroke styles. 











You need to add liang jinkun and pitchford to the list who never had problem with HT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 3:48pm
Unless the elbow is far from the body when they hit the ball, they would be giving up massive amounts of power.  I've watched them both play a lot, and, save for instances where they get jammed in the middle, neither EVER contacts the ball with their arm anywhere close to their body.  How far the paddle contact point is from their center of rotation is a big deal.  See nerdy sketch and paddle velocity calculation below.  (Note that I failed to clearly label r1 and r2.  r1 = 0.58m and r2 = 0.86m)

Ball speed calculations are impractical, it is certain that faster paddle speed will result in a faster ball.  

I'm not concerned about where the elbow is during the backswing, or even at the start of the forward swing.  But where it is during the ball contact zone is very important.

Also note that the 48% speed loss is based on my arm measurements and on the assumption that the upper arm is straight down for v1 and straight out for v2.  In reality, I suspect that neither is common, but having the arm fairly extended at contact is good for power.  Having the elbow close to the body at contact is a great way to lose power.

bes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 8:21am
In the ttPoster video above, the most fun is watching, from Gatien's view, Wang's serve.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 5:14am
Originally posted by bes bes wrote:

I'm disagree with the video analysis...  

Whoever does the narrating says that Ma Long and Fan "keep their elbows close to their bodies".  The Video, however, seems to dispute this claim pretty clearly.  The video shows both their right elbows FAR from their bodies on their forward swings - at least on all full or nearly full power swings.  There were a couple "soft warm-up-type" strokes where they did not extend their arms or move the elbow much from the body, but those strokes clearly were not taken in anger and were not intened to do more than return the ball.  I'd go so far as to say that when they contact the ball on their power strokes, their elbows are pretty much AS FAR AS POSSIBLE from their bodies.

The do indeed tuck their elbows in close to their bodies during their backswings.  

The folks who compare Harimoto to Gatien are pretty clever.  It was super tough to exploit Gatien's elbow/middle.  Likewise for Harimoto.  Their strokes and body movement are different, but they both were very effective close to the table.  Both can hit remarkably effective shots against balls inches from their bodies, which is uncommon even among top pros.

bes


ML and FZ clearly keep their right elbow close to their body during the first part of the swing, i.e. before they release their elbow. The swing is long but that doesnt mean that it requires the elbow far from the body

Edited by timole - 08/20/2018 at 5:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 12:33am
Originally posted by bes bes wrote:

I'm disagree with the video analysis...  

Whoever does the narrating says that Ma Long and Fan "keep their elbows close to their bodies".  The Video, however, seems to dispute this claim pretty clearly.  
That would not be the first ERT video where the narrative claim does not comport with the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 12:11am
@bes-It's that take back with arm close to the body that is one of the main characteristics of that style of FH. 


Also the big drive forehand vs the compact fast attack forehand has been done before and then as now it's about who can leverage their advantages vs the other player more so than some inherent stroke advantage.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2018 at 11:38pm
I'm disagree with the video analysis...  

Whoever does the narrating says that Ma Long and Fan "keep their elbows close to their bodies".  The Video, however, seems to dispute this claim pretty clearly.  The video shows both their right elbows FAR from their bodies on their forward swings - at least on all full or nearly full power swings.  There were a couple "soft warm-up-type" strokes where they did not extend their arms or move the elbow much from the body, but those strokes clearly were not taken in anger and were not intened to do more than return the ball.  I'd go so far as to say that when they contact the ball on their power strokes, their elbows are pretty much AS FAR AS POSSIBLE from their bodies.

The do indeed tuck their elbows in close to their bodies during their backswings.  

The folks who compare Harimoto to Gatien are pretty clever.  It was super tough to exploit Gatien's elbow/middle.  Likewise for Harimoto.  Their strokes and body movement are different, but they both were very effective close to the table.  Both can hit remarkably effective shots against balls inches from their bodies, which is uncommon even among top pros.

bes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2018 at 10:52pm
When Harimoto started playing in pro tournaments his forehand was not strong enough to generate much power on his own relative to the older/bigger players so he "borrows" power from the incoming shot and redirects as Larry pointed out. It's more of a counter hit/drive and is optimized more towards low cycle time rather than spin and speed. There is a clear difference between his current stroke technique and that of the ML and FZD. But I think this reflects a different approach by the coaching and player development systems as a lot of the JPN players have that close to the table block and fast counter-attack style, whereas the CN players tend mix in more big drive loops. 

I also have a question with regard to the "new style"  of play due to the nature of the new ball. 

What happened in the Australian & Bulgarian open finals? 

If HT is the way forward and spinning the ball and using big drive FHs is outdated then why did XX pretty much dominate HT and KM?

Here is one comparison of stroke styles. 










Edited by V-Griper - 08/19/2018 at 11:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2018 at 3:33pm
 Liam Pitchford! he has his own technique, think about that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2018 at 8:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2018 at 7:57am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

In addition, your technique has to match your body shape and dimensions. Samsonov and FZD would never look similar regardless of who coached them! Also there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is a video of Werner Schlager coaching footwork where he advocates a very efficient way of moving that runs counter to about 99.9% of coaching dogma.

The thing I notice about Harimoto is the quality of his serving and how smart he plays. And still a kid! When he gets stronger he will be even more scary.
where can I find the video?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There is a video of Werner Schlager coaching footwork where he advocates a very efficient way of moving that runs counter to about 99.9% of coaching dogma.
I think that was where he was showing a kid how to follow through back into position after looping a forehand from the wide forehand. It wasn't so much against coaching dogma as an classic example of high-level technique that isn't common below that level. Most players don't realize that you should adjust your follow-through based on your positioning so as to position yourself better for the next shot. I did a Tip of the Week on this once. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2018 at 7:11am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There is a video of Werner Schlager coaching footwork where he advocates a very efficient way of moving that runs counter to about 99.9% of coaching dogma.
I think that was where he was showing a kid how to follow through back into position after looping a forehand from the wide forehand. It wasn't so much against coaching dogma as an classic example of high-level technique that isn't common below that level. Most players don't realize that you should adjust your follow-through based on your positioning so as to position yourself better for the next shot. I did a Tip of the Week on this once. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2018 at 6:32am
In addition, your technique has to match your body shape and dimensions. Samsonov and FZD would never look similar regardless of who coached them! Also there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is a video of Werner Schlager coaching footwork where he advocates a very efficient way of moving that runs counter to about 99.9% of coaching dogma.

The thing I notice about Harimoto is the quality of his serving and how smart he plays. And still a kid! When he gets stronger he will be even more scary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 4:27pm
I never personally go in for all the technique side of Table tennis, simply because what is 'correct' at any given point in time is not later on. The paradox is that without deviations in the mainstream coaching mantra TT would never evolve.
 TT evolves in cycles determined by innovation, without that the game would never evolve. If a player, technically can move, play a stroke and recover consistently, they have everything needed to go as far as their devotion will take them.  Look at players  like kreanga, Schlager,  and in his day Waldner, they all bucked the coaching trend of their time.  China is a little different, a very technique orientated system that obviously works for them , but they have numbers on their side.  European  table tennis innovations have determined Chinese Innovations, firstly by the Hungarians, secondly by the  Swedes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

 Fan was faster at 16 harimoto plays flatfooted

Harimoto is not flatfooted. Here's video of him vs. Fan Zhendong. Watch both of their feet - they are constantly in motion, the opposite of flatfooted. The difference you may be thinking of is more about style - Harimoto has one of the best backhands in the world and so tends to play a more backhand-oriented game, while Fan has one of the best forehands in the world and so plays a more forehand-oriented game. 
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Thanks for your input larry its great to know the opinion of someone who really knows the sport unlike some posters that pretend they know about the table tennis and being hostile.

Bard romance your opinion means nothing for me


Edited by mykonos96 - 08/15/2018 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

 Fan was faster at 16 harimoto plays flatfooted
Harimoto is not flatfooted. Here's video of him vs. Fan Zhendong. Watch both of their feet - they are constantly in motion, the opposite of flatfooted. The difference you may be thinking of is more about style - Harimoto has one of the best backhands in the world and so tends to play a more backhand-oriented game, while Fan has one of the best forehands in the world and so plays a more forehand-oriented game. 
-Larry Hodges

Larry, you may want to save your energy. Mykonos96 has come out of nowhere and made a disproportionate number of ridiculous claims in his short time as a poster here. Just saying...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

 Fan was faster at 16 harimoto plays flatfooted
Harimoto is not flatfooted. Here's video of him vs. Fan Zhendong. Watch both of their feet - they are constantly in motion, the opposite of flatfooted. The difference you may be thinking of is more about style - Harimoto has one of the best backhands in the world and so tends to play a more backhand-oriented game, while Fan has one of the best forehands in the world and so plays a more forehand-oriented game. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 08/15/2018 at 1:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Come on guys he's just a 15 yr old kid....even Fan Zhendong at 16 had power issues...and look where he is now!


Fan was faster at 16 harimoto plays flatfooted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 11:43am
Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

if quick shots instead of power shots are future, soon woman will start beating man? They are smaller(less mass to move) and already adopted quick shots style.

Liu Shiwen vs Harimoto, what you think?
Mima Ito vs Ma Long?

good point LOLLOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 11:28am
Come on guys he's just a 15 yr old kid....even Fan Zhendong at 16 had power issues...and look where he is now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 11:11am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

if quick shots instead of power shots are future, soon woman will start beating man? They are smaller(less mass to move) and already adopted quick shots style.

Liu Shiwen vs Harimoto, what you think?
Mima Ito vs Ma Long?


I would love to see both thoae matches.


I dont think harimoto can beat ma long again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 10:39am
Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

if quick shots instead of power shots are future, soon woman will start beating man? They are smaller(less mass to move) and already adopted quick shots style.

Liu Shiwen vs Harimoto, what you think?
Mima Ito vs Ma Long?


I would love to see both thoae matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 8:53am
His forehand looked more powerful and "adult-like" in his last tournament.

Edited by WeebleWobble - 08/15/2018 at 8:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2018 at 5:12am
if quick shots instead of power shots are future, soon woman will start beating man? They are smaller(less mass to move) and already adopted quick shots style.

Liu Shiwen vs Harimoto, what you think?
Mima Ito vs Ma Long?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bardock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2018 at 5:55pm
I mean he doesn't have the strongest forehand but definitely not amateur his forehand is pro level. Like Larry Hodges said his forehand is really quick and his angles are very good and it makes sense not everyone is textbook. But I notice other then him having a really quick forehand he really gets the ball right of the bounce so its like a onslaught of quick shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2018 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

 Can you point who says that liu is wrong?. So he or you must be a better coach to prove liu is wrong.
I dont see haromito scoring with his forehand check the natch against filus ruwen

Post a match where you can back your argument that liu is wrong regarding harimoto FH

Harimoto scored lots of points with his quick, angled forehand in his win over Ma Long, and in similar matches. Ma could have played more to Harimoto's forehand, but instead went mostly crosscourt to Harimoto's backhand since any shot to Harimoto's forehand would have been met with that quick forehand. It's not as powerful as Ma's or Fan's, but quite effective. Otherwise, Ma and everyone else would simply play to Harimoto's forehand - but that simply doesn't work unless it's a very strong attack or they get Harimoto out of position first. 

And as people keep noting, he's still basically a kid who just turned 15 and will gain power as he gets older. The question is not whether he has as much power as, say, Ma or Fan, but whether he has comparable power for the best players his age. It would be pretty stupid tactics for him to go up against Ma or Fan and try to match them forehand power to power, so he does what he does better than they do, and so focuses on quickness and angles. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 08/15/2018 at 1:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2018 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Harimoto at age 14
[Liu gouliang said that harimoto FH was like a girl FH
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Liu talked too about lacking power in his FH]</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">From an important perspective, Liu Guoliang is completely wrong concerning Harimoto's forehand.  Harimoto has a powerful forehand for a 14 year old.  Since Liu has taken this stand, he should produce a video of more powerful 14 year old forehands.  I say this: Just wait until Harimoto gets really old, like age 17, then we will see what we will see.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">It is important to remember that Liu did not spend long years professionally developing very young players.  He was, due to political strength, vaulted quickly to the coaching stratosphere.  Among the great Chinese coaches that have the young player developmental background, you will not find Liu confirmation.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Also, it is known that Liu, socially, strongly favors the "traditional" roles for women  (or "girls").  This was evident from a number of sources, including in the absence of women coaches at the highest level of the Chinese table tennis team system.  Men, men, men.  This attitude is decidedly not in compliance with the Chinese national leadership.  It is instructive that happily now, in this table tennis structure, women are found where they were not before.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Thanks.   </span>



Can you point who says that liu is wrong?. So he or you must be a better coach to prove liu is wrong.
I dont see haromito scoring with his forehand check the natch against filus ruwen

Post a match where you can back your argument that liu is wrong regarding harimoto FH
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