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Harimoto forehand technique

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    Posted: 07/30/2018 at 5:47pm
I was watching Harimoto's forehand at the practice call at the Australian Open last week. It was interesting to watch  his forehand and then watch the other players forehands at the practice hall. I noticed he gets a lot more hip and shoulder rotation compared to all the other players. Maybe he is more flexible? He does not seem to straighten his arm in the backswing much at all. He rotates forward very fast. It seems he rotates forward much much faster than all other players in the hall. It would be interesting to measure this with slow motion video and compare other players. This must give him a faster racket speed? Any comments on his technique from others?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2018 at 8:26pm
Yes, reminiscent of Gatien.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2018 at 9:21pm
That's obvious no?

The weaker a player is physically , the more he has to use hip and waist rotation to enhance the power of the shot. Actually everybody should! It's the way chinese coaches teach, rotation from the hip is the key to Spin , power and shot quality. When someone is underdeveloped physically compared to others he is competing with, it becomes even more important. It's also even more important with the new heavier ball.

I remember my lessons in 1996-2000 - the coach really emphasized on this
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2018 at 10:37pm
His forehand level is way below his backhand level
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 4:52am
So if his strength increases and he continues to use a lot of very fast hip rotation he will develop a great forehand?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 4:55am
No, it will only lead to injury at this rate. That's why the CNT doesn't encourage trunk rotation anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 5:22am
ZJK is on the other end of the spectrum, with not a lot of waist rotation...and he got injured quite badly too... Fan Zhendong uses a lot of waist rotation too, and he seems quite healthy at the moment (don't know about the future tho!).

I have a fellow club member who just rips every shot mainly using shoulder movement and he still seems healthy after decades of playing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 5:59am
Waist rotation dies not lead to injuries as long as the athlete is in good shape and maintains his flexibility through stretching. As athletes grow older they lose flexibility and if they don't compensate with specific stretching they do get injured. The best fh players use waist and legs a lot. Power from the ground, ration from the waist
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 3:13pm
Way less rotation after the introduction of the plastic balls, due to the speed of the balls and thus less time to reaction. Instead, one should use his/her hip to transfer the power from the leg. This is according to Li Sun, the head coach of the women's team. He actually used ZJK as an example against it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 4:47pm
women and men, don't they have different styles (with some exceptions)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

women and men, don't they have different styles (with some exceptions)

I guess you thought that Li Sun knows nothing about men's team and they don't really train together, lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by wanchope wanchope wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

women and men, don't they have different styles (with some exceptions)

I guess you thought that Li Sun knows nothing about men's team and they don't really train together, lol
not knowing nothing about men's team but he might just be talking about the women's style (didn't see the interview)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by wanchope wanchope wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

women and men, don't they have different styles (with some exceptions)

I guess you thought that Li Sun knows nothing about men's team and they don't really train together, lol

not knowing nothing about men's team but he might just be talking about the women's style (didn't see the interview)


If he was talking about female players only, I would've said so. No, he was referring to all players in general, using zjk as an example. If you understand Mandarin, it's easy to find the video clip. No more waist rotation with plastic balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by wanchope wanchope wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by wanchope wanchope wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

women and men, don't they have different styles (with some exceptions)

I guess you thought that Li Sun knows nothing about men's team and they don't really train together, lol

not knowing nothing about men's team but he might just be talking about the women's style (didn't see the interview)


If he was talking about female players only, I would've said so. No, he was referring to all players in general, using zjk as an example. If you understand Mandarin, it's easy to find the video clip. No more waist rotation with plastic balls.



It Would be great to have the translated video
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 9:26pm
wanchope, would you say ML in the 2017 World Cup against TB was using his waist
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZhouZhekai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2018 at 11:22pm
I think another advantage of Harimoto is that it is applicable close to the table because the time needed for the stroke is less when compared to Ma Long or Fan Zhendong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 8:46am
This is where the technical stuff comes in.



The lower back refers to the lumbar spine, where the waist is. This part of the spine is not suited for rotation. Look it up on the net. It's been widely documented. Here's an example. Simply put, waist rotation is bad.

Now, ZJK's injury is not in the lumbar spine, but in the sacrum. He was born with a fracture on the left side of it. The right side is now fractured as well due to training. The condition got worse after he sprained his ankle, as he had to put more stress on the lower back to compensate.

@16:48


Edited by zeio - 08/01/2018 at 8:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 9:23am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

wanchope, would you say ML in the 2017 World Cup against TB was using his waist


ML started before the plastic ball era. So it's natural that these players would maintain some, if not all, the techniques from before. I think the idea is that using hip instead of waist rotation is the way to go, and the CNT (men and women) is working on this. Maybe if you compare ML's FH from before vs. today, you might see some difference. Also, FH from close to the table and from far away is different.
Again, this is a sport not a science. Being a top player depends on more than mere way of stroke. Everyone is different.

There are a lot of vidoes on this topic actually, at least those in manderin. Below is one of those that I mentioned. No subtitle though, :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzYhdtJIdBg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 9:31am
Originally posted by wanchope wanchope wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

wanchope, would you say ML in the 2017 World Cup against TB was using his waist


ML started before the plastic ball era. So it's natural that these players would maintain some, if not all, the techniques from before. I think the idea is that using hip instead of waist rotation is the way to go, and the CNT (men and women) is working on this. Maybe if you compare ML's FH from before vs. today, you might see some difference. Also, FH from close to the table and from far away is different.
Again, this is a sport not a science. Being a top player depends on more than mere way of stroke. Everyone is different.

There are a lot of vidoes on this topic actually, at least those in manderin. Below is one of those that I mentioned. No subtitle though, :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzYhdtJIdBg
I actually did see this and is applying whatever he said.  Do you have an example of a leading male player who is not using waist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danseemiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 10:10am
Harimoto favors the BH. This gives him less time to turn for the Fh.
His neutral position is a bit left of center.
For instance Ma Long's FH was right of center for a long time and he has moved it a bit to the left to improve his BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 3:25pm
 The plastic ball has made a tempo change, we all feel it at every level. It is less effective to play a committed large power spin f/hand because it is easier for the opponent to cope with, unless there is a 'window' for a winner, an aggressor will end up out of tempo in the rally. 
The game has moved towards counter hit more than spin orientated. Short snappy strokes are the way to go, the b/hand is naturally that, f/hand not so, difficult for older players who have ingrained old style stroke production based on spin/power. 
 Baal is right, Gatien would be right on the ball now, not that he wasn't then lol. 
 As Dan says above, b/hand players have less time to commit and are by nature more square to the table, a disadvantage when playing off the table, but the new kids on the block just do not need to, they can meet the incoming topspin early off a square stance and time a short snappy counter loop to great effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 6:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 7:43pm
"I think the idea is that using hip instead of waist rotation is the way to go"

How the heck can the waist not rotate when the hips do?

Can you link to a video showing this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZhouZhekai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2018 at 11:51pm
Look at Zhang Jike loop, barely any waist compared to Ma Long, but a explosive hip movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr8IaMWXCK0
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:10am
Thanks for the video link ZhouZhekai.

Sure I see less body turn in ZJK's forehand, but the waist and hips turn together (at least that is what I'm seeing). However, I see more shoulder turn in ML's swing.

Anatomically, I just can't see how the waist can move separately from the hips, but I can see the shoulders turning more than the waist.  Again, at least that's what I'm seeing when comparing swings.

I agree with you as far as an explosive hip movement goes, since as the video captions say, the power is transferred from feet to hips, but I see the waist moving with the hips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Thanks for the video link ZhouZhekai.

Sure I see less body turn in ZJK's forehand, but the waist and hips turn together (at least that is what I'm seeing). However, I see more shoulder turn in ML's swing.

Anatomically, I just can't see how the waist can move separately from the hips, but I can see the shoulders turning more than the waist.  Again, at least that's what I'm seeing when comparing swings.

I agree with you as far as an explosive hip movement goes, since as the video captions say, the power is transferred from feet to hips, but I see the waist moving with the hips.
since no one is answering you, here is my take.  you cannot use the hip without moving the waist, I think what they mean is the movement coming from the hip and the waist going with it - that is the waist not being rotated to any great extend beyond the movement attached to the hip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2018 at 10:56am
Thx, tom. That makes sense! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by maurice101 maurice101 wrote:

I was watching Harimoto's forehand at the practice call at the Australian Open last week. It was interesting to watch  his forehand and then watch the other players forehands at the practice hall. I noticed he gets a lot more hip and shoulder rotation compared to all the other players. Maybe he is more flexible? He does not seem to straighten his arm in the backswing much at all. He rotates forward very fast. It seems he rotates forward much much faster than all other players in the hall. It would be interesting to measure this with slow motion video and compare other players. This must give him a faster racket speed? Any comments on his technique from others?


Liu said harimoto FH was average to low
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2018 at 10:28am
Harimotos FH is still amateurs level; right elbow far from the body, not much power from his legs

Edited by timole - 08/11/2018 at 10:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2018 at 10:55am
Originally posted by timole timole wrote:

Harimotos FH is still amateurs level; right elbow far from the body, not much power from his legs


Definitely amateur level. But his footwork must be amazing, since he has to play bhs all over the table to keep the other top ten WR men from getting into his fh.
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