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Harimoto forehand technique

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bes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2018 at 11:38pm
I'm disagree with the video analysis...  

Whoever does the narrating says that Ma Long and Fan "keep their elbows close to their bodies".  The Video, however, seems to dispute this claim pretty clearly.  The video shows both their right elbows FAR from their bodies on their forward swings - at least on all full or nearly full power swings.  There were a couple "soft warm-up-type" strokes where they did not extend their arms or move the elbow much from the body, but those strokes clearly were not taken in anger and were not intened to do more than return the ball.  I'd go so far as to say that when they contact the ball on their power strokes, their elbows are pretty much AS FAR AS POSSIBLE from their bodies.

The do indeed tuck their elbows in close to their bodies during their backswings.  

The folks who compare Harimoto to Gatien are pretty clever.  It was super tough to exploit Gatien's elbow/middle.  Likewise for Harimoto.  Their strokes and body movement are different, but they both were very effective close to the table.  Both can hit remarkably effective shots against balls inches from their bodies, which is uncommon even among top pros.

bes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 12:11am
@bes-It's that take back with arm close to the body that is one of the main characteristics of that style of FH. 


Also the big drive forehand vs the compact fast attack forehand has been done before and then as now it's about who can leverage their advantages vs the other player more so than some inherent stroke advantage.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 12:33am
Originally posted by bes bes wrote:

I'm disagree with the video analysis...  

Whoever does the narrating says that Ma Long and Fan "keep their elbows close to their bodies".  The Video, however, seems to dispute this claim pretty clearly.  
That would not be the first ERT video where the narrative claim does not comport with the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 5:14am
Originally posted by bes bes wrote:

I'm disagree with the video analysis...  

Whoever does the narrating says that Ma Long and Fan "keep their elbows close to their bodies".  The Video, however, seems to dispute this claim pretty clearly.  The video shows both their right elbows FAR from their bodies on their forward swings - at least on all full or nearly full power swings.  There were a couple "soft warm-up-type" strokes where they did not extend their arms or move the elbow much from the body, but those strokes clearly were not taken in anger and were not intened to do more than return the ball.  I'd go so far as to say that when they contact the ball on their power strokes, their elbows are pretty much AS FAR AS POSSIBLE from their bodies.

The do indeed tuck their elbows in close to their bodies during their backswings.  

The folks who compare Harimoto to Gatien are pretty clever.  It was super tough to exploit Gatien's elbow/middle.  Likewise for Harimoto.  Their strokes and body movement are different, but they both were very effective close to the table.  Both can hit remarkably effective shots against balls inches from their bodies, which is uncommon even among top pros.

bes


ML and FZ clearly keep their right elbow close to their body during the first part of the swing, i.e. before they release their elbow. The swing is long but that doesnt mean that it requires the elbow far from the body

Edited by timole - 08/20/2018 at 5:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 8:21am
In the ttPoster video above, the most fun is watching, from Gatien's view, Wang's serve.

"From the darkness; into the light."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 3:48pm
Unless the elbow is far from the body when they hit the ball, they would be giving up massive amounts of power.  I've watched them both play a lot, and, save for instances where they get jammed in the middle, neither EVER contacts the ball with their arm anywhere close to their body.  How far the paddle contact point is from their center of rotation is a big deal.  See nerdy sketch and paddle velocity calculation below.  (Note that I failed to clearly label r1 and r2.  r1 = 0.58m and r2 = 0.86m)

Ball speed calculations are impractical, it is certain that faster paddle speed will result in a faster ball.  

I'm not concerned about where the elbow is during the backswing, or even at the start of the forward swing.  But where it is during the ball contact zone is very important.

Also note that the 48% speed loss is based on my arm measurements and on the assumption that the upper arm is straight down for v1 and straight out for v2.  In reality, I suspect that neither is common, but having the arm fairly extended at contact is good for power.  Having the elbow close to the body at contact is a great way to lose power.

bes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

When Harimoto started playing in pro tournaments his forehand was not strong enough to generate much power on his own relative to the older/bigger players so he "borrows" power from the incoming shot and redirects as Larry pointed out. It's more of a counter hit/drive and is optimized more towards low cycle time rather than spin and speed. There is a clear difference between his current stroke technique and that of the ML and FZD. But I think this reflects a different approach by the coaching and player development systems as a lot of the JPN players have that close to the table block and fast counter-attack style, whereas the CN players tend mix in more big drive loops. 

I also have a question with regard to the "new style"  of play due to the nature of the new ball. 

What happened in the Australian & Bulgarian open finals? 

If HT is the way forward and spinning the ball and using big drive FHs is outdated then why did XX pretty much dominate HT and KM?

Here is one comparison of stroke styles. 











You need to add liang jinkun and pitchford to the list who never had problem with HT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2018 at 5:57pm
It seems to me Harimoto's forehand is a combination of the Chinese and European forehand technique. He gets power from huge body rotation even more than the usual Chinese technique and he then uses a bent arm forehand like many Europeans. If he has time it is not a short stroke like many people comment on. I liked the comment that he is strong on elbow shots as this is a key target of the pros. Give him a few years and it will be very interesting to see how he develops this shot.


Edited by maurice101 - 08/21/2018 at 5:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2018 at 11:23am
[Also note that the 48% speed loss is based on my arm measurements and on the assumption that the upper arm is straight down for v1 and straight out for v2.  In reality, I suspect that neither is common, but having the arm fairly extended at contact is good for power.  Having the elbow close to the body at contact is a great way to lose power.

bes]

Bes' submission is making an important contribution here.
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