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(9/12 New) Li Sun: Say No to Waist Rotation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PythonMonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

How do you rotate the hips without the waist following?

You don't. The point of the video is that your shoulders should stay in line with your hips; rotation and weight transfer should come from your legs moving your whole torso.

There's often confusion when talking about this stuff between the body part that moves and the body part that causes the movement. So if your coach tells you to rotate your hips, he's telling you to use your legs. Legs move hips (and the rest of the torso) relative to the ground. Waist/core muscles move shoulders relative to the hips. So "no waist rotation" means keep your shoulders in line with your hips.

For a right hander, right-sided hip and knee flexion/extension is the main engine of rotation and weight transfer for efficient forehand shot mechanics. Many players rely as much or more on core muscles turning shoulders relative to hips, but this is less efficient and requires twisting the lower back over and over again which the lower back does not appreciate. If for no other reason, follow the advice in this video to keep your lower back from getting aggravated and taking revenge on you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:30pm
You can call me pedantic, but I'd call it oblique, at best, misleading at worst. 

When I read,"The waist should stay put."
or
"The waist should remain still" without any qualification, I take it as he says it.

"Staying put" means do not move at all! It does not mean follow.

Or this, ""All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball." 

Sorry, I think that is very poor communication for a coach.

Maybe his audience is advanced players and they get it. 

However, "the waist should stay put as it follows the hips" is confusing to me as well.

The waist is moving so it cannot stay put... you can call me pedantic, but I think it's a confusing way to express it.

As others have said, the waist follows the hip... power from the ground, up... and all o' that.  

It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree on this minor point.

I do agree with what you are saying with respect to the intended technique.


Edited by Ieyasu - 08/03/2018 at 10:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 1:22am
maybe a waist of time Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 1:53am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

You can call me pedantic, but I'd call it oblique, at best, misleading at worst. 

...........I do agree with what you are saying with respect to the intended technique.


Yes, as per PythonMonty, follow the coaches who say, "use your legs". i'e focus on powering from that push onto the leg, the rest will follow.



Edited by Tinykin - 08/04/2018 at 1:55am
>60yo, losing weight 30 pounds to go

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 2:36am
Haha smackman...good one.

Speaking of waisting time, I am going to ask a couple of Chinese players rated over 2400 who speak the King's English, what they think that coach is saying.

I agree with Tinykin's post... I'm just curious whether this coach is not communicating clearly or I'm a pedantic idiot. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 8:05am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...


Thanks, Andy.

Waist rotation has been a problematic term for a long time, if folks will check out the table below.

Cervical = Neck, Thoracic = Chest, Lumbar = Waist


The lumbar spine has the least range of motion. Upper body rotation is largely completed by the thoracic spine and hips. That's why I've always used trunk/torso rotation instead when writing on forums and subbing videos, such as this one, even if they actually meant waist rotation.

Still, trunk rotation is de-emphasized nowadays for reasons as you stated.

Edited by zeio - 08/04/2018 at 8:14am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Thx Zeio for posting and translating the vids, as well as creating a separate thread.

However, the coach's words do not seem to match the actions of the demo player he is praising.

Coach says...

"All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball."

"Waist rotation this substantial is a big no-no." [This instruction seems okay, since it implies small waist movement. However...]

"The waist should stay put."

"The waist should remain still."

But, when I watch the demo player, his waist is clearly moving with his hips and his waist is definitely not facing the table. Sure it is less rotation than rotating at a 90 degree angle. 

As stated in the other thread, what is perhaps meant is less waist/hip rotation, which is fine, but the coach's explanation is completely misleading to me, at least in English.

Maybe it's a translation/language issue.

When I look-up hip flexion, I get this definition:
"<span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">The word </span><b style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">flexion<span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> actually means to decrease the angle between two bones at joint. "</span>

So what the heck is meant by hip-flexion in the first place, in a table tennis forehand swing context???? 


To clarify what Li Sun meant:



In his demonstration above, he flexed his hip and knee to "turn" his trunk and bring his weight down for the backswing. Notice the angle between his trunk and thigh decreased. See the image below.

He then extended his hip and knee for the forward swing. Also, there's some internal/external rotation and abduction/adduction of the right/left hip. It's hard to see so you have to experience it yourself.





He also stressed that one should not overextend the hip(hip hyperextension) when doing it.

Edited by zeio - 08/04/2018 at 10:03am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

I am a bit confused cause I don't exactly understand the meaning or the words "stamp" and "flexion" in this contest and generally most translations from chinese to english seem much too complicated or at least weird. Often seeing those in describing rubber properties on the back of a package

The stamp means "to push off the foot." Think of walking up the stairs.

Flexion is just the anatomical term for "bend." Elbow flexion is basically forearm snap, for instance.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2018 at 10:38am
Thx zeio. Succinct and clear.

Also, watching the video I missed the downward and then upward movement with the foot/knee/leg, as opposed to playing in a crouched stance and merely rotating each time. (That's a great deal of head movement).


Edited by Ieyasu - 08/04/2018 at 10:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2018 at 3:18am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...


Thanks, Andy.

Waist rotation has been a problematic term for a long time, if folks will check out the table below.

Cervical = Neck, Thoracic = Chest, Lumbar = Waist


The lumbar spine has the least range of motion. Upper body rotation is largely completed by the thoracic spine and hips. That's why I've always used trunk/torso rotation instead when writing on forums and subbing videos, such as this one, even if they actually meant waist rotation.

Still, trunk rotation is de-emphasized nowadays for reasons as you stated.


Wow....very informative indeed... I tried some shadow stroke practice with the suggestions and it seems to work better! Will try it on a real table next... Basically the shoulders should always be in line with the hips right to prevent any torsion at the lower back. It does make a lot of sense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DistantStar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2018 at 10:14am
Translation for people who dont like to get too nerdy:

Xuxin FH - NO!

LSW FH - YES!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2018 at 5:19pm
I started today pushing the ground with the right foot when doing right hand FHs,
and keeping shoulders more parallel with the hips, and it feels right, except:

Sometimes I am fast or lucky enough to get to the ball behind the table and
above net level (also I'm short, think Koki Niwa). Here I feel trunk rotation is
still better in terms of recovering for the next shot versus the only
alternative I can think of for increasing my power: move my right foot way
in the back, and transfer my weight from the back leg to the front leg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 9:48am
More Li Sun's clinics. Keeping them together for easier reference.





Edited by zeio - 08/12/2018 at 11:41am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 10:49am
Great stuff again Zeio Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:00am
These are fabulous.  I particularly like: "Remember to 'eat' the ball"!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:34am
Just putting my piggy bank here, in case folks want to show their appreciation.

Subbing takes a ton of time, effort and dedication!
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:39am
Last year in Deaflympics my game was completely broken, because I had no a coach to explain me these things posted in these videos. Old style with adding tons of spin on the ball just gone far away.
It is just not effective.
Today is more possible to receive back injury looking to play old style (with more spin) than some success in the matches.
Often you have no time to react well, especially with balls Nittaku Premium 40+.

I felt myself physical disturbed a lot.
With Nittaku SHA 40+ my game was two or three ideas better than with Premium 40+.
Also rest of the balls DHS/DONIC/STIGA/BUTTRFLY  I never had the troubles that I have with Premium 40+.
These balls also go faster than usual and they are also harder than rest on the market.

The coach here is right, overall you have no time already to play old stylle table tennis and the new/younger, professional oriented players - they must play completely limited in movements if they want to be successful.

I am afraid we will never see again the beautiful table tennis from Waldner's Era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZhouZhekai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 5:25pm
Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 8:13pm
"Just bump into it." So no more brushing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2018 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?

In one of Zeio's subtitles, it looks like stomping is synonymous with pushing off with the right-foot, for a right-hander. (In English that is not the case, of course)


Edited by Ieyasu - 08/12/2018 at 8:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2018 at 11:26pm
Lol we can finally talk about hip extension Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?


In one of Zeio's subtitles, it looks like stomping is synonymous with pushing off with the right-foot, for a right-hander. (In English that is not the case, of course)


The exact word used is "蹬". According to my dictionary, it means "腿、腳向腳底方向用力", literally "leg or foot uses force in the direction of the bottom of the foot" in English.

Now, stamp means "to thrust the foot forcibly downward", when used intransitively or "to bring the foot down onto (an object or surface) forcibly", transitively. I didn't choose "stomp" because it carries a connotation of anger.

"蹬" is often used in combination with another character, such as "蹬伸"(to stamp and extend), "蹬轉"(to stamp and turn), "蹬腿"(to stamp the leg, also used for leg press), "蹬腳"(to stamp the foot) etc.

In some parts of China, "跺" is used instead of "蹬". The former carries a connotation of anger, not unlike stamp vs stomp.

Whatever term you prefer, the idea is to transfer the weight in sync with the forward swing of the stroke.

Edited by zeio - 08/20/2018 at 9:14am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2018 at 10:57am
It used to be common to stomp on a FH smash to emphasize the weight transfer. (Stomp left foot if right handed and vice versa).
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 2:45am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 5:13am
Hi zeio,

Thank you for the subtitles in the videos! This is very interesting since lots of people, on a lower level, have difficulties with the concept of rotating the waist.

The way I understand the concept of flexion in the hip, this results more in an upwards movement while playing VH Topspin while the concept of rotating the waist gives a forward movement.

Could you explain how to generate a forward movement when using flexion of the hip?

Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 9:35am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 10:58am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.


I thought Li Sun was saying to hit the first ball then spin the second, which doesn't seem to make sense. Then I watched the video and he actually said "hit 1st brush 2nd" in the same stroke.. He means you should first make sure a good contact going through the center of the ball (hit), and the brush is secondary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.


I thought Li Sun was saying to hit the first ball then spin the second, which doesn't seem to make sense. Then I watched the video and he actually said "hit 1st brush 2nd" in the same stroke.. He means you should first make sure a good contact going through the center of the ball (hit), and the brush is secondary.
I once advocated that on this forum and plenty of « high level » physicists and medical authorities told me that I was full of it because the nervous system is not a network fast enough to allow any change at such a short contact time. I was trying to promote the « borrow-just-enough-spin-from-speed-to-land-and-no-more » concept. My thought was that if the order to rotate forward the paddle at contact is sent before contact, execution is delayed and the result is a deeper sponge engagement followed by a better brush.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 1:44pm
He didn't say anything about changing racket angle during ball contact, or even during the stroke, though. I think he's saying to avoid pure brushing strokes especially with the new plastic ball. I mean you can have a stroke going through (mostly) the centre of the ball while brushing it at the same time, right? That should be what he's advocating.

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

   I once advocated that on this forum and plenty of « high level » physicists and medical authorities told me that I was full of it because the nervous system is not a network fast enough to allow any change at such a short contact time. I was trying to promote the « borrow-just-enough-spin-from-speed-to-land-and-no-more » concept. My thought was that if the order to rotate forward the paddle at contact is sent before contact, execution is delayed and the result is a deeper sponge engagement followed by a better brush.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2018 at 2:16pm
the video didn't say anything about how to execute hit and spin (and power)
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