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LA Open was an embarrassment for US table tennis

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AcudaDave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2018 at 11:09am
Watched the 1st match of the Quarterfinals between Jiwei Xu and the Japanese player and gotta say I’ve never seen so many little rituals after every point. He walks to each side of table, touches both shoes, wipes forehead with both firearms, then wipes table again, etc. Isn’t there a time limit between points, and what’s with touching shoes after every point?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2018 at 2:41pm
On the lighter side............

[This thread makes me wax nostalgic for the good old days at Cobo Hall D in Detroit...]

Ah yes, the good ol' days!  I remember one year Insook and I drove and drove out of the dead downtown to a place for Thanksgiving dinner.

It was then reliably fun.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2018 at 2:55pm
I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn playing in a 3 story brick warehouse. The bottom floor had the storage closet and the playing space was on the top floor. They had to carry the tables up 3 flights of stairs to begin play and of course down the stairs for storage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2018 at 3:07pm
[I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn playing in a 3 story brick warehouse. The bottom floor had the storage closet and the playing space was on the top floor. They had to carry the tables up 3 flights of stairs to begin play and of course down the stairs for storage.]

My guess is that the tables were Detroiters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2018 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

[I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn playing in a 3 story brick warehouse. The bottom floor had the storage closet and the playing space was on the top floor. They had to carry the tables up 3 flights of stairs to begin play and of course down the stairs for storage.]

My guess is that the tables were Detroiters.
This generation is so spoiled. When I was a kid we dragged the tables three miles through the snow on our backs at 4AM. We played in the allies in the local unheated bowling alley, with gutters on each side and dodging the occasional miss-thrown bowling ball from adjacent allies. We used icicles for rackets and a pine cone for the ball. The lighting was 30 lux and we wore sunglasses. Players would make the ball fly funny by spitting tobacco juice on it, and on opponents during the point. And you had to move quick or the big black bats would swoop down and get you, or sometimes a bear that wandered in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2018 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

This generation is so spoiled. When I was a kid we dragged the tables three miles through the snow on our backs at 4AM. We played in the allies in the local unheated bowling alley, with gutters on each side and dodging the occasional miss-thrown bowling ball from adjacent allies. We used icicles for rackets and a pine cone for the ball. The lighting was 30 lux and we wore sunglasses. Players would make the ball fly funny by spitting tobacco juice on it, and on opponents during the point. And you had to move quick or the big black bats would swoop down and get you, or sometimes a bear that wandered in. 
-Larry Hodges
Sunglasses!  You had sunglasses?  You were spoilt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

On the lighter side............

[<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">This thread makes me wax nostalgic for the good old days at Cobo Hall D in Detroit...]</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Ah yes, the good ol' days!  I remember one year Insook and I drove and drove out of the dead downtown to a place for Thanksgiving dinner.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">It was then reliably fun.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Thanks</span>
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 6:31pm
That's what Greektown was for. Mousaka, Greek bread, salad, and several bottles of Fix beer.
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

USATT Rues of Table Tennis

4.3. Playing Conditions 4.3.1. The playing space shall be rectangular and not less than 9.2m long, 4.6m wide (30ft long, 15ft wide) and 5m high.
4.3.2. The light intensity, measured at the height of the playing surface, shall be at least 300 lux in the entire playing area.

This is the 300 lux in standard that is the basis for the star rating criteria check sheet.

My new light meter toy showed up yesterday - took it to the club and saw that we have ~400Lux, which is quite decent, IMHO. Next step - find a place with ~200 Lux to get a feel for what BH-Man had to deal with :). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2018 at 9:56pm
[That's what Greektown was for. Mousaka, Greek bread, salad, and several bottles of Fix beer.]

Gee, I must not have been clear: by "Thanksgiving dinner" I meant "an American traditional Thanksgiving with all the fixin's."  That is: Roast turkey, dressing, mashed potatoes, gravy, green beans, dinner rolls, cranberry sauce, and pumpkin pie.  (If I missed something here, that is what we have Heavy Spin for, to fill in any additional details.)

The above requirements required the drive.

Thanks
Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 12:12am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Gee, I must not have been clear: by "Thanksgiving dinner" I meant "an American traditional Thanksgiving with all the fixin's."  That is: Roast turkey, dressing, mashed potatoes, gravy, green beans, dinner rolls, cranberry sauce, and pumpkin pie.  (If I missed something here, that is what we have Heavy Spin for, to fill in any additional details.)

The above requirements required the drive.

Thanks

I initially thought you forgot the stuffing, but that's what you call dressing. You've resided in Colorado and Georgia for significant time where "dressing" is the preferred term. Technical note - dressing is cooked outside the turkey cavity, stuffing inside the turkey cavity.

Additional side dish - sweet potato casserole.


Edited by heavyspin - 09/12/2018 at 7:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 10:33am
[I initially thought you forgot the stuffing, but that's what you call dressing. You've resided in Colorado and Georgia for significant time where "dressing" is the preferred term. Technical note - dressing is cooked outside the turkey cavity, stuffing inside the turkey cavity.

Additional side dish - sweet potato casserole.]

See, I told you Heavy Spin would deliver!

Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 10:38am
Lamb is tastier than some dried out bird.
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by acpoulos acpoulos wrote:

Lamb is tastier than some dried out bird.


You obviously have never had a Cajun style whole deep fried turkey. Nothing against lamb, but done right turkey is far from dried out.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 3:26pm
Yes I have had deep fried turkey in New Orleans and other places, and it's great. But c'mon man, not even in the ballpark with roast lamb chops and mint jelly.
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote topspinschuss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 2:13pm
Is there any reason the questions below aren't being answered? Did they lie on the sanctioning form or not? It's really a simple question. Did they lie last year too about the court sizes? And, as someone mentioned, why was Tawny Banh, the USATT sanctioning person for this region, not able to go check the place out? 

It's been almost two weeks and both the LA Open committee and USATT haven't provided any satisfactory explanation, nor any kind of apology, realization that they messed up, and a promise to fix these things in the future. 

It's not ok to just let these threads die like in the past hoping that people will forget. That's one of the main reason our sport hasn't been going anywhere for decades. If the USATT can't even answer such simple questions that could be looked up in less than 5 minutes than one has to wonder if the USATT knew about the conditions and sanctioned the tournament AND the national ranking tournament anyway. 

Originally posted by topspinschuss topspinschuss wrote:

Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Hello...me again...

I actually think threads like this can be good if taken the right way. Leyasu is right - if no one says anything, things cannot improve. At the same time, there is the idea of "beating a dead horse" (sorry for the bad analogy) and that's where "constructive feedback" can quickly turn into "piling on."

Thanks for participating, Gordy, and trust me that I know you're in difficult position here, but what "dead horse" are we beating? The intentional deception and misrepresentation by the committee wasn't addressed at all here. Did they lie to the USATT or not? They sure lied to us and omitted crucial information on top of that. How is the USATT going to deal with such things? Just close both eyes as to not "anger" the committee so they continue holding the tournament, or represent the interest of the USATT membership and punish them for acting in such an intentional unethical and reckless *and* rule-violating manner? 

Quote From my standpoint, I saw first-hand what many of you had issues with and understand that these are issues that need to be dealt with in the future.

So you know how bad things were then, right? 


Quote If we are going to continue to work with the LA Open Organizing Committee, in many respects we know what needs to be fixed from this year. 

I know you're trying to be diplomatic here and not step on anyone's feet. However, how do you work with people that just lied to the USATT during the sanctioning process and lied and misrepresented facts to the membership? As a member I don't care how much money they put into a tournament, rules should apply to everyone equally. And where is their apology and admission of mistakes and the promise to improve in the future? It's been a week and we heard nothing besides a person from the LA Open tournament signing on for the first time and acting all insulted and admitting absolutely nothing. 

The USATT should not take this lightly, especially since it also affected our ranking tournament and made our country's table tennis organization look ridiculous (once again) to the rest of the world. 

Quote Next year might present a new set of challenges that we didn't see this year (for example, last year the courts were too small and squeezed together - which the move to the venue this year fixed).

So wait...so they had courts that were too small last year and still got sanctioned? How did that happen? Did they lie about it on the sanctioning form or did the USATT close both eyes and let it pass? These things are not things that "we didn't see" ahead of time. These things are things that can be corrected before the tournament even takes place as the rules and regulations are stated quite clearly on the USATT website. And the LA Open committee isn't new at this...they've been doing it for years, so they should know by now. And if they couldn't get things right before the tournament, they should not hold the tournament (and the USATT shouldn't sanction it IF they are aware of the problems)...easy as that. 

Quote This is what happens when you don't have full-time, dedicated facilities for table tennis able to handle tournaments of this size. Over my brief 4-year term here (and most if not all of you have been involved in table tennis far longer than me) this is a big issue for our sport overall - we don't have dedicated facilities able to handle larger size tournaments and are in many respects at the will of the facility owners to provide the very specific needs our sport has. 

This LA Open and national ranking tournament incident had nothing to do with dedicated facilities but with people intentionally misrepresenting things. Most facilities actually have sufficient light...things like glare are usually the biggest problems, not cave conditions and sauna-like temperatures. It's not that hard to find a place with good light and air con. And if you you think it's "too expensive" to rent...then make your tournament a $30,000 tournament instead of $40k and spend the difference on the facility. This is not rocket science. 


Quote This is not a complaint, but instead a simple observation. Sports like Tennis or golf don't have to deal with this issue as much because their facilities in most cases are year-round, dedicated to that one sport.

By the way...Germany doesn't have dedicated table tennis facilities either and they are the No. 2 country in table tennis in the world. (Not sure China has dedicated facilities...and how many). They just have better organization and rules and regulations that people need to follow "or else." Rules and regulations need to be enforced and obvious examples of lies and misrepresentation in the *8th* year of a tournament need to be punished. That's one of the main reasons why Germany is better at this...and Canada, and India and Spain and Australia....you name it. 

Quote
Taking a longer term vision, if we want to have these bigger/grander types of tournaments, this is an issue we have to solve. That is where I agree (in part) with TtGold, but unfortunately we don't have the luxury in most cases of looking at our sport from an "investment" side right now.

As much as I like big, well-organized tournaments, we need a certain amount of ethical grounding and good conditions for our sport to be taken seriously by the general public and "big money."  You may not know this, but in NYC we had *for years* very high level (CEO, and similar positions) people from companies like Goldman Sachs taking lessons in table tennis and being really eager to support the sport...but these people are not dumb. When they see poor organization and clear lies and deception they are not willing to support the sport. And when they see people that are unreliable and can't even take care of basic things (like lighting and telling the truth about things that even a 5 year old would know would cause problems down the line) then they stay away for good. 

And we don't need to fill Hou Yingchao's pockets with 10 Grand but raise money for things like FINALLY having working leagues at least at the state level and establishing table tennis clubs at the K12 level. So, again, I don't see the LA Open helping US table tennis *at all* at this point. (Having said that I would still love to go to big, well-organized tournaments in venues that aren't from a Mad Max movie). 

In any case, it really doesn't help to make this look like it was just a bunch of harmless mistakes (like it's their first tournament) instead of calling it out for what it was....a blatant disregard for the rules and intentional misrepresentation of the facts. Again, what is the USATT going to do about this? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by topspinschuss topspinschuss wrote:

Is there any reason the questions below aren't being answered? Did they lie on the sanctioning form or not? It's really a simple question. Did they lie last year too about the court sizes? And, as someone mentioned, why was Tawny Banh, the USATT sanctioning person for this region, not able to go check the place out? 

It's been almost two weeks and both the LA Open committee and USATT haven't provided any satisfactory explanation, nor any kind of apology, realization that they messed up, and a promise to fix these things in the future. 

It's not ok to just let these threads die like in the past hoping that people will forget. That's one of the main reason our sport hasn't been going anywhere for decades. If the USATT can't even answer such simple questions that could be looked up in less than 5 minutes than one has to wonder if the USATT knew about the conditions and sanctioned the tournament AND the national ranking tournament anyway. 
Just so you know, things are really, really busy at USATT right now, due to a complete revamping of the U.S. Open and other issues, so Gordon is rather busy right now. Give them time, and perhaps even email him, and he'll likely at least let you how and when it's being handled. I'm pretty sure it'll be discussed at the upcoming USATT board meeting, Sept. 21-23 - I'll be there. 
-Larry Hodges
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Member, USATT Hall of Fame
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by topspinschuss topspinschuss wrote:

Is there any reason the questions below aren't being answered? Did they lie on the sanctioning form or not? It's really a simple question. Did they lie last year too about the court sizes? And, as someone mentioned, why was Tawny Banh, the USATT sanctioning person for this region, not able to go check the place out? 

It's been almost two weeks and both the LA Open committee and USATT haven't provided any satisfactory explanation, nor any kind of apology, realization that they messed up, and a promise to fix these things in the future. 

It's not ok to just let these threads die like in the past hoping that people will forget. That's one of the main reason our sport hasn't been going anywhere for decades. If the USATT can't even answer such simple questions that could be looked up in less than 5 minutes than one has to wonder if the USATT knew about the conditions and sanctioned the tournament AND the national ranking tournament anyway. 
Just so you know, things are really, really busy at USATT right now, due to a complete revamping of the U.S. Open and other issues, so Gordon is rather busy right now. Give them time, and perhaps even email him, and he'll likely at least let you how and when it's being handled. I'm pretty sure it'll be discussed at the upcoming USATT board meeting, Sept. 21-23 - I'll be there. 
-Larry Hodges

What is being changed for US Open besides location?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote topspinschuss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Just so you know, things are really, really busy at USATT right now, due to a complete revamping of the U.S. Open and other issues, so Gordon is rather busy right now. Give them time, and perhaps even email him, and he'll likely at least let you how and when it's being handled. I'm pretty sure it'll be discussed at the upcoming USATT board meeting, Sept. 21-23 - I'll be there. 
-Larry Hodges

Thanks Larry! Appreciate it! :)   I didn't know about the meeting on Sept. 21-23. I think it's best to just wait then. I'm sure we'll get an update after the meeting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by topspinschuss topspinschuss wrote:

Is there any reason the questions below aren't being answered? Did they lie on the sanctioning form or not? It's really a simple question. Did they lie last year too about the court sizes? And, as someone mentioned, why was Tawny Banh, the USATT sanctioning person for this region, not able to go check the place out? 

It's been almost two weeks and both the LA Open committee and USATT haven't provided any satisfactory explanation, nor any kind of apology, realization that they messed up, and a promise to fix these things in the future. 

It's not ok to just let these threads die like in the past hoping that people will forget. That's one of the main reason our sport hasn't been going anywhere for decades. If the USATT can't even answer such simple questions that could be looked up in less than 5 minutes than one has to wonder if the USATT knew about the conditions and sanctioned the tournament AND the national ranking tournament anyway. 
Just so you know, things are really, really busy at USATT right now, due to a complete revamping of the U.S. Open and other issues, so Gordon is rather busy right now. Give them time, and perhaps even email him, and he'll likely at least let you how and when it's being handled. I'm pretty sure it'll be discussed at the upcoming USATT board meeting, Sept. 21-23 - I'll be there. 
-Larry Hodges

What is being changed for US Open besides location?
The entry form will be out in days, so I'd really rather let it come out first. I'm pretty sure Gordon will be here then to answer questions. 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Butterfly Sponsored
Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 3:44pm
Congratulations to Linda Leaf and all those involved with this weekend's upcoming Badger Open (4 stars). I am from that area. The facility is great. Free parking, proper flooring and lighting. Wish I could be there. Kick ass Danno!
Tony
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