Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Coaching during the match
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum Home Forum Home > General > General

Coaching during the match

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2018 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

"And why did you sign your previous post as "Larry" and this one as "Ron"? I'm starting to have suspicions. "

Maybe he self-identifies as "Larry," sometimes, and "Ron" at other times... sorry, I could not resist.
I think he meant to sign the first as "Harry," and then came "Ron," so next we'll get "Hermione." Smile

Just kidding, lineup32/Larry/Ron/Anonymous Serena Fan. But it is rather . . . troubling when some anonymous person uses multiple names like this. 
-Larry Dumbledore Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 09/12/2018 at 11:45pm
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Butterfly Sponsored
Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
Ieyasu View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 07/18/2015
Location: DPR Kalifornia
Status: Offline
Points: 81
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 1:35am
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

The umpire is from Portugal very likely does not appreciate nor accept the concept that women are equal to men and considering Serena is Black and hated by the International Tennis Federation only gives him more incentive to strictly apply the rules.

lineup32, given the nature and tone of your posts, I don't suppose you would recognize the rich irony of the above, even if it were explicitly explained.
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 158
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 9:45am
Hi,

Here is another perspective from tennis journalism:


This article sides with the players in an unquestionably difficult and confusing incident.  The argument in the article is very well expressed, as were the expressions in another article that took an opposite view.  As I argued previously, it is the SITUATION and CONTEXT that placed the participants in a very arbitrary and unacceptable officiating and player challenge.  It is the SITUATION and CONTEXT created by the rules, the rule makers, and the management and administration of the tournament and the sport in general.

To this point, using a number of literary devices, here are the key points:

1)  Why is coaching during the match illegal?  Why?  Look at other professional sports.  Even famously curmudgeon table tennis now permits it.   This coaching rule is very harmful to both players and match officials and a failure of leadership on the part of the sport's governing leadership.

2)  There is no "double standard" in enforcement of this rule, because there is NO standard of enforcement of this rule.  The enforcement is very arbitrary, random, official-dependent, and capricious, resulting in a highly unacceptable situation for the participants.  Many of the highest rank in tennis have testified to this fact.  The fundamental basis of the argument concerning this incident, an argument expressed by tens of millions, is precisely because there is no consistent enforcement.  Look at the umpire Ramos.  Why do many continue to characterize his as a "strict" umpire?  Because his behavior sits on the strict end of an excessively long spectrum of acceptable chair umpire behavior concerning this rule.  Other umpires may be placed on the tolerate end of this spectrum, also acceptable.  All this strongly suggests these sincere umpires are suffering under the requirements of attempting enforcement of a bad rule.

3)  Why is the PLAYER penalized for the COACH'S behavior?  Why?  In other sports, players are penalized for player behavior and coaches are penalized for coaches' behavior, but, with this rule, not in tennis.  As it is obvious beyond the need to state, the player is not in control of the coach's behavior, yet the governing ruling class of the sport forces the player to assume the responsibility for the coach's behavior.  Really?  Is this the best you can do?  Really?  Here is a grand idea: Let's reverse it; if the player "misbehaves," let's yellow card and fine the coach!  These coaches must keep their players in line!

4)  So much of the commentary centers on what specific behavior is misbehavior within the rules and what behavior is not misbehavior withing the rules.  The most prevalent argument that has repeatedly surfaced is one based on tradition.  "We" have always tolerated this behavior, however "we" have never tolerated that behavior.  The judged correctness and appropriateness of these behaviors is historically-based, a very bad basis in a dynamic sport and progressing society.  

Here is one example: both Djokovic and Del Potro screamed with exuberance at times during the finals match (between games) when good things just resulted.  We can all agree that an adult screaming is extremely childish, very unbecoming a mature person, and has no place in civilized sport and civilized society.  No developed person of education and proper breeding would disagree.  No decent parent would want their child screaming like that under any circumstance.  It is uncomfortably embarrassing just to watch such childish behavior from a grown adult.  Yet, no penalty was assessed because, historically, the tennis establishment says such behavior is acceptable.  

Why, do you suppose, this behavior is not an infraction of the rule?  Only God knows, however I speculate that the behavior is acceptable because it is expressing a positive emotion.  Expressing positive emotion is good.  In contrast, smashing your racket is an expression of negative emotion.  Expressing negative emotion is bad.

That said, both of these behavior examples have at least one thing in common: they did not disrupt or delay the play in the match.  No operational harm resulted.  OK, maybe the behaviors had another equivalence: both were sincere, authentic, honest emotional expressions.  Both were very human, very genuine, and caused no harm to the proceedings.  Perhaps the humanism of the rules officials should be permitted prevalence over the adjuration of history.

Thank you to all who contributed here.  Well done, indeed! 
Donn
Back to Top
fatt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 14993
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:00am
The way Serena involved her daughter was despicable, like using the last trump card when everything else has failed "I am a mother, I have a daughter...". Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! "Observe your mama my honey girl and learn how we make sure door men pay due respect to superstars!"
 
No can judge her for that though, we all can be brainless air headed idiots when emotions take over!

I still hate Ramos for injecting himself into the game; instead of calming things down for the sake of the tennis show, he chose to make himself the center of things in a disgusting career move. I wish him the worst and I hope all those skeletons in his closet will be uncovered.

Same conclusion though, as the GOAT, a mom, a sister, a daughter, a business woman worth $M100s, she did not have the right to lose her mind, that's a mistake kids do, not accomplished 36 years old people who have 23 grand slam titles hanging on their belts. 

In my opinion, Serena enabled whatever abuse Ramos inflicted her, if abuse there was: we know that from a legal perspective, there was not; but we all know from a perspective where the business of tennis depends on superstars showing their skills off, an umpire is the door man and the absolute best ones never get famous. Ramos is super famous so he certainly is NOT a good umpire, CQFD! As said above, he could have told Serena that he would have to take extreme action if she did not control herself and that would have been it, that would have been good umpiring supporting the business of tennis. Ramos is a good umpire supporting the business of himself, the hell with him.



Edited by fatt - 09/13/2018 at 11:04am
Back to Top
mg View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/18/2011
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:12am
No. There is a big difference between "childish" and "bad". When you shout at people, threat them with obvious disrespect and even threaten them - that's not simply "childish", outside the tennis court you would be sentenced fot that. Why should such behaviour be tolerated on the court? It's just a big lie that everybody behaves from time to time like Serena did so let's stop pretending that it's a normal thing. No harm to the proceedings? Really? Trying to influence the decisions of the umpire and putting your younger and inexperienced opponent in this kind of situation before your home crowd, especially when you aren't actually right? "My court"? The other players are there just for decoration purposes, it's actually Serena's show and no one has the right to spoil it any way? I dare to say that both Federer and Nadal are greater champions then she is because they had to compete with each other and they never really went that far, not even close to what she has done on several occasions. Yes, it's "human" to behave like this but it's not a part of the human nature that should be tolerated at least as far as I'm concerned.
My feedback:



http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47297&title=mg-feedback
Back to Top
jfolsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 03/15/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:29am
The coaching rule in tennis is ridiculous. If the coach coaches and breaks the rule, throw the coach out. Isn't that what table tennis used to do?

Neither Serena nor Carlos did themselves any favors, and in my opinion both were wrong. Serena acted very inappropriately, Carlos escalated instead of trying to diffuse the situation.
Back to Top
mg View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/18/2011
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:30am
Fatt, so we have to care for the business of tennis, not the sport tennis? The people who pay for it and not the ones who get paid millions every year? And Ramos had to beg her to stop? Do you really think that she would take anything different from an apology and getting back the point that she lost because of the penalty? And do you think that such a decision would have been legal and would benefit the sport? And do you believe umpires actually have no dignity so they should allow to be treated this way in the name of "the business of tennis"? Wow, that's equality at it's best.
My feedback:



http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47297&title=mg-feedback
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3622
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:40am
wow, this thread is still going strong, however, still no idea why "anyone of sound mind" can side with Serena LOL
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

wow, this thread is still going strong, however, still no idea why "anyone of sound mind" can side with Serena LOL
if you have to ask then I assume you don't have any idea why a certain President was elected and still retain some popular support
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 12286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

wow, this thread is still going strong, however, still no idea why "anyone of sound mind" can side with Serena LOL

Because perspective and angle matter. People can disagree on what should follow from the same set of facts.  It is a part of the reason we have political parties. Otherwise everyone of sound mind should have the same political viewpoint, no?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.
Back to Top
Matt Pimple View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 12/03/2012
Location: Phoenix
Status: Offline
Points: 1759
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:57am
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

The coaching rule in tennis is ridiculous. If the coach coaches and breaks the rule, throw the coach out. Isn't that what table tennis used to do?

Neither Serena nor Carlos did themselves any favors, and in my opinion both were wrong. Serena acted very inappropriately, Carlos escalated instead of trying to diffuse the situation.

Yes maybe the rule is ridiculous but it still is the rule! Carlos simply applied the rule as it is not the umpires job to question a rule but just to apply it.
OSP Ultimate ST; DHS H3 Neo 2.1, Dr. Neubauer ABS 2.1

My Feedback
Back to Top
acpoulos View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/10/2007
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:02pm
1. The umpire's calls were proper. 2. Serena will put this behind her and modify her behavior. Close the thread please!
Tony
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by acpoulos acpoulos wrote:

1. The umpire's calls were proper. 2. Serena will put this behind her and modify her behavior. Close the thread please!
not sure about no. 2
Back to Top
fatt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 14993
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by mg mg wrote:

Fatt, so we have to care for the business of tennis, not the sport tennis? The people who pay for it and not the ones who get paid millions every year? And Ramos had to beg her to stop? Do you really think that she would take anything different from an apology and getting back the point that she lost because of the penalty? And do you think that such a decision would have been legal and would benefit the sport? And do you believe umpires actually have no dignity so they should allow to be treated this way in the name of "the business of tennis"? Wow, that's equality at it's best.
the business of tennis is the prism through which both Serena and Ramos are expressing themselves and I was depicting their actions through the same, I was placing my thoughts in their context to better describe the why of things.
Back to Top
jfolsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 03/15/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

The coaching rule in tennis is ridiculous. If the coach coaches and breaks the rule, throw the coach out. Isn't that what table tennis used to do?

Neither Serena nor Carlos did themselves any favors, and in my opinion both were wrong. Serena acted very inappropriately, Carlos escalated instead of trying to diffuse the situation.

Yes maybe the rule is ridiculous but it still is the rule! Carlos simply applied the rule as it is not the umpires job to question a rule but just to apply it.


I don't fault the umpire for enforcing that rule. My only issue with the umpire was a lack of de-escalation.
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3622
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

wow, this thread is still going strong, however, still no idea why "anyone of sound mind" can side with Serena LOL
if you have to ask then I assume you don't have any idea why a certain President was elected and still retain some popular support
btsc, I can say about that two good looking one too LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3622
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

The coaching rule in tennis is ridiculous. If the coach coaches and breaks the rule, throw the coach out. Isn't that what table tennis used to do?

Neither Serena nor Carlos did themselves any favors, and in my opinion both were wrong. Serena acted very inappropriately, Carlos escalated instead of trying to diffuse the situation.

Yes maybe the rule is ridiculous but it still is the rule! Carlos simply applied the rule as it is not the umpires job to question a rule but just to apply it.


I don't fault the umpire for enforcing that rule. My only issue with the umpire was a lack of de-escalation.
is he suppose to have? 
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
jfolsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 03/15/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

The coaching rule in tennis is ridiculous. If the coach coaches and breaks the rule, throw the coach out. Isn't that what table tennis used to do?

Neither Serena nor Carlos did themselves any favors, and in my opinion both were wrong. Serena acted very inappropriately, Carlos escalated instead of trying to diffuse the situation.

Yes maybe the rule is ridiculous but it still is the rule! Carlos simply applied the rule as it is not the umpires job to question a rule but just to apply it.


I don't fault the umpire for enforcing that rule. My only issue with the umpire was a lack of de-escalation.

is he suppose to have? 


Yes. Go watch the exact same umpire and how he handled the Djokovic-Nishikori match at Wimbledon this year. A racket was abused, the player was unhappy, much unhappy talking about not being fair that went on for a long time, no escalation.
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3622
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

 
Yes. Go watch the exact same umpire and how he handled the Djokovic-Nishikori match at Wimbledon this year. A racket was abused, the player was unhappy, much unhappy talking about not being fair that went on for a long time, no escalation.
I believe you. However, can you show us the video? It is because I just wonder are they are same level?
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
alphapong View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/11/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 501
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 3:05pm
What I find illuminating is that I posted 2 videos of men being disqualified for behavior not as extreme as what Serena did and the response was that: 

"... Christine Brennan, a CNN sports analyst says

"Think of John McEnroe, think of Ilie Nastase, Jimmy Connors, Andre Agassi. These men all berated chair umpires, famously so. Commercials have been made. McEnroe has done, 'you can't be serious' and all the other tirades, top of his lungs over the years and none of them received a game penalty,".

I provide a video of McEnroe being disqualified and the response is that Christine Brennan says it never happens. Is it a fake video? Is it really common knowledge that; men are not penalized for similar behavior, the playing field is not level, and women are treated unfairly? I call BS on that. 

Here is what Steve Flink at Tennis.com said,"Those that turn this imbroglio into a matter of sexism are forgetting that John McEnroe, Jimmy Connors and Andre Agassi were all disqualified from matches in their careers."

While it is relevant if a video exists showing men behaving badly without being penalized, it is more relevant if video exists that show men being penalized for behavior less egregious then Serena's.

I have provided two videos, one old and one recent, that show just this. 






Edited by alphapong - 09/14/2018 at 1:23am
Back to Top
alphapong View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/11/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 501
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

 
Yes. Go watch the exact same umpire and how he handled the Djokovic-Nishikori match at Wimbledon this year. A racket was abused, the player was unhappy, much unhappy talking about not being fair that went on for a long time, no escalation.
I believe you. However, can you show us the video? It is because I just wonder are they are same level?

I think this is the interaction that has been mentioned: 


Yes, there was no escalation from Ramos, because there was no escalation in Djokovic's behavior. Djokovic is able to let things go without calling Ramos names. If anything the clip shows that the umpire is also strict with the men. 


Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 158
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 9:50pm
On the Men-to-Women (Sexism) Imbalance of Enforcement of This Coaching Rule on the Tennis Pro Tour

The information in the press that is coming out around the Serena incident concerning the unequal treatment between men and women on the enforcement of this rule indicates there are some notable individuals within the professional ranks that state there does exist such an imbalance of enforcement, an imbalance that favors the men.  What these advocates fail to do is provide cogent and persuasive evidence in support of their position.  Aside from the easily referenced anecdotes, there is a glaring absence of convincing facts and/or data presented in a compelling form.  I am unconvinced and will remain unconvinced such an imbalance between the men and the women exists until a much more forceful argument is made.  

On the Racism Imbalance of Enforcement of This Coaching Rule on the Tennis Pro Tour
Within the professional ranks, via the public information, it seems this advocacy group is very limited in size.  One problem in attempting to evaluate this charge is the limitation on cohort size, as the sport is a very White sport at the elite level, thus enervating the standard statistical methods that may be used.  Not even anecdotes seem available to argue this case.  Because there seems to be no case at all to be made available to analyze, I am unconvinced of its validity.

On the Very Significant Inconsistency of Enforcement of This Coaching Rule on the Tennis Pro Tour
From many different sources, it seems that, within the professional ranks of tennis, that the very significant inconsistency of enforcement is common and accepted knowledge.  The difficulty finding advocates for the conviction of consistent enforcement is very great.  The reasons for this acknowledged enforcement variability are several, ranging from the differing temperaments of individual umpires, to the practical difficultly of one person--the umpire--attending to all the match duties of which there are many, and still be able to watch the coaches' boxes too, to a unstated class bias favoring the superstars.  From the tennis professional group's perspective, there is no dispute here: the rule is very unevenly enforced.   Based on the evidence I have found, I am convinced. 

Thanks.
Donn
Back to Top
fatt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 14993
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 11:41pm
DonnOlsen, reading your English is very pleasant because the magnificent sentence structure, impeccable grammar, lack of spelling mistakes, all protected under the umbrella of a coherent theme, you are light made through words, thanks for posting here.
Is English your 1st language? Very often I find people talking French as a 2nd language practicing it more efficiently than me because they learned it respecting all the rules from the start and it allows them to get faster than me to the point, or do I just try finding excuses?

Edited by fatt - 09/14/2018 at 12:20am
Back to Top
alphapong View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/11/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 501
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 12:43am
"I was the chair umpire for the fourth-round stadium court match (1987 US Open) between John McEnroe and Slobodan Zivojinovic where I issued a warning, point penalty and a game penalty against McEnroe."

Richard Ings  professional chair umpire 1986 to 1993 
ATP Tour Executive Vice-President, Rules and Competition 2001 to 2005.


BTW, this is not the same instance as the video I provided. In that case, the 1990 Australian Open, the sequence was: 
1) Warning
2) Point penalty
3) Default


Edited by alphapong - 09/14/2018 at 1:08am
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 158
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 9:35am
Hi

[fatt: DonnOlsen, reading your English is very pleasant because the magnificent sentence structure, impeccable grammar, lack of spelling mistakes, all protected under the umbrella of a coherent theme, you are light made through words, thanks for posting here. 
Is English your 1st language?]

You make an interesting point about individual language development.  I'm indigenous to the U.S., with English (or as the British would say, American) as my first language.  At that critical inflection point in my formal education, a selection needed to be made as to the foreign language to study.  Probably in error (or maybe not), I asked my science-oriented physician father for direction here.  He said "Well, you could always study Latin."  So I did, to all the benefit therein.  

One interesting consequence was the result of Latin being a "dead" language, understood as not a functioning spoken language for a people anywhere.  From this my very delightful school teacher structured the learning toward vocabulary development and translation; very minimized speaking of the language, an approach in great contrast to the spoken languages' educational processes.  Because all of our study time was devoted to the text and its meaning, and not learning to speak the language, an emphasis resulted in a striving for precise textual understanding.  [This also means; do not ask me to pronounce gesundheit or ce qui sera sera (both utterances my Bohemia-background mom liked to say.)]

I happen to have very extensive exposure to second language learning expertise.  The editor of my three table tennis books is Kyongsook Kim, a Korean native who has a Masters degree from a Korean university, another Masters from a university in England, and her PhD in Philosophy from an American university.  One of her Master degrees is in English and translation.  

Writing the books was a remarkable process, with Kyongsook spending great lengths of time in editing, contributing to the quality of the outcome greatly.  I found it sheer delight to read and hear her observations on my writing, to listen to the depth of deep knowledge come through in reflections on my work.  From someone not always easily impressed, I was very impressed.

As to my writing: it seems that writing remains quite the mystery for those who study language and its usage and expression.  I do have a sense of my origins.  Since a pre-teen, I've devoured non-fiction books from subject disciplines of some breadth.  This has been core throughout my life.  While the primary motivation was learning - an effort to understand more and more clearly - two accomplices walked with me along the journey.  As I studied, I had an attendant interest in analyzing how the author thought, the structure of his mind and how he cogitated.  I found very significant and fascinating variations that functioned independent of the actual content of the writing.  The second accomplice was an interest in how the language was being used, the nature of the sentence structure, the selective vocabulary, the phraseology employed.  This was also highly captivating for me.  So, in this process of three attentions - learning, applied mental structure, and language usage - I developed as I am. 

Finally, along the way I developed an aptitude to retain what I call "snippets of fun," small items that this curious mind finds interesting.  Here are a few.

The genius Bertrand Russel said the smartest person he ever met was John Maynard Keynes.

Norman Mailer said the quickest mind he ever encountered was Marshal McLuhan.

At his height of prestige and influence, on one occasion Ludwig Wittgenstein traveled to London by train.  Keynes was tasked with meeting him at the station.  Keynes announced something like: "God is arriving. I'm picking him up at the 5:15 train."

The method that Isaac Newton used to "read" a book was to copy every word of the book; by his hand he copied the complete book.

Andre Malraux was for a period of time the Minister of Culture in France.  Jean Paul Sartre hated Malraux.  He is quoted as saying "French culture does not need a Minister." 

Here is my favorite Malraux quote (from one of the translations from the French): "The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung at random among the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness."

And thanks to you fatt for your contributions!
Donn
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3622
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 10:51am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

On the Men-to-Women (Sexism) Imbalance of Enforcement of This Coaching Rule on the Tennis Pro Tour

The information in the press that is coming out around the Serena incident concerning the unequal treatment between men and women on the enforcement of this rule indicates there are some notable individuals within the professional ranks that state there does exist such an imbalance of enforcement, an imbalance that favors the men.  What these advocates fail to do is provide cogent and persuasive evidence in support of their position.  Aside from the easily referenced anecdotes, there is a glaring absence of convincing facts and/or data presented in a compelling form.  I am unconvinced and will remain unconvinced such an imbalance between the men and the women exists until a much more forceful argument is made.  


Actually, I have no idea how can she bring the sexism or other "-ism" to this case? She is like complaining that she needs to go to ladies washroom instead of men washroom LOL
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 326
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 11:17am
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2018/09/13/carlos-ramos-returns-chair-serena-williams-row-statistics-back/

"AS the now famous umpire Carlos Ramos prepared for his first match since the controversial US Open final, a new set of figures showed that men have received almost three times as many code violations as women in the past 20 years of grand-slam events"

Men got 86% of raquet abuse and almost 80% of verbal abuse violations. Women are more likely to be called for coaching violations.

There is a lot of TV bias when people develop opinions. Many people only watch a handful of matches and ignore the large number of matches that actually get played.



Edited by qpskfec - 09/14/2018 at 11:45am
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 11:29am

"Men got 86% of raquet abuse and almost 80% of verbal abuse violations. Women are more likely to be called for coaching violations."

Hey this is extremely sexist  !!!!!!!  Can't explain why but I would like to make it an issue anyhow.LOL
Back to Top
Tassie52 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/09/2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1220
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"a new set of figures showed that men have received almost three times as many code violations as women in the past 20 years of grand-slam events"

Men got 86% of raquet abuse and almost 80% of verbal abuse violations. Women are more likely to be called for coaching violations.
This proves exactly nothing.  Statistics only report what they measure and their value is limited to the variables they factor in.  Reporting that 86% of something happens doesn't tell us anything more than the number of violations recorded.  What if men broke their racquets half as many times as women but received more violations?  Of if out of every 100 racquet breakages men were responsible for 95% but only received 86% of the violations?  What if women were far less likely to break their racquets but were penalised every single time they did, whereas men were only penalised sometimes?

The quoted information is interesting but still very likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted.
Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3084
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 12:46am
Who won?
Ulmo Duality,tibhar Aurus Prime Dr N Pistal Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website,
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.203 seconds.
Mark all posts as read :: Delete cookies set by this forum

Cookies and JavaScript must be enabled on your web browser in order to use this forum


Copyright © 2003-2013 MyTableTennis.NET - All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer