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Advice on Match (Opp. BH Long Pips)

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    Posted: 09/13/2018 at 2:33am
Hey guys. So I've always been weak against less common styles, probably because I play them a lot less.

Here's a match I played last week against a BH long pips player.

In this particular match, I lost 1-3. The last time I played her, I lost deuce in the 5th, so I thought I'd have a better chance this time.

The score was pretty close with me losing 9 or deuce in all sets I lost.

The 4th game I think I could have won since I was up 6-4, but I lost concentration and dumped 2 of her serves into the net. A worker from the center we were playing at came during the match to say that I'm not allowed to take videos inside the premises, but luckily the person in charge of the table tennis club was there and he had a talk with the worker telling him that they had permission. Anyway, that conversation was happening right behind me and while I was looking forward, I was listening to the conversation behind me!! Very distracting since it was my camera.

I have some ideas about what I could have/should have done better.

1. Use my backhand more. She seems to have more trouble with my slow short, spinny but no power backhands.
2. Attack cross court after pivoting more often. She kept punishing my wide forehand when I committed down the line. Maybe take it slower with more spin so she can't chop block it back so fast.
3. Go for less power and more controlled shots until I have a better opportunity to kill the ball.
4. Aim more for her middle rather than her backhand. When I hit the ball there, she seems to be very uncomfortable using her backhand to block it. Her body is completely out of position.
5. Just get better by practicing more...

Below I included sets 2, 3 and 4. The set I won was 3. Sorry about the angle for some of it. And sorry for the eye bleeding bad table tennis T_T



Advice as always appreciated! And long pips players, please tell me how to beat you haha.


Edited by mickd - 09/13/2018 at 2:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 3:53am
Try to avoid pushing twice in a row into her pips, no matter what shot she plays after your first push, but especially if she pushes back. Your second push results in a sitter and that's too easy for her.

Another thing that might help is to try and play more to the same side. She does not twiddle, so it is easier to predict and control what comes back to you as a result of your shots.

Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 4:17am
1) You lost too many points pushing back long pushes....should try to loop them a lot more! I guess this is the main area in your game that needs improvement.
2) She's not so good at receiving half long serves to the FH, you're right to capitalize on it. I think you should have focused on it a lot more actually as she didn't seem to be able to adjust to it, rather than having too much variation.
3) Generally you should be aiming your FH loops more to the middle than her BH where she is very comfortable blocking them.
4) Pushing to her pips was usually a bad idea, you lost many points following that line of thought, better was to push to her FH, to get her out of position first. She lost many points trying to attack your pushes.

In matches, it's a skill to keep track of what works and what doesn't... I think you can beat her...you just gotta adjust your tactics!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2018 at 9:48pm
Thank you, vvk1! Yes, I need to avoid the double push at all cost. Luckily she doesn't twiddle. I should probably aim more for her forehand to get more of the balls I'm used to. But I really need to practice against the long pips balls more, too.

Very good suggestions, blahness. Thank you. In the 4th set, I was up 10-9 but made a bad choice with the serve. I knew those balls side spin short or half long balls wide to the forehand were effective, and I did it at 9-9 to get the point, but decided it would be a good idea to do a under spin short ball instead. I was convinced she would try to attack it (for some reason) so when she pushed it instead I just froze for half a second, failing to get into position to attack and I netted the ball. I only recently started to use that serve so I haven't really had time to practice it yet (probably started it less than a month ago). It's extremely effective.

I'll keep all those points in mind the next time I play her. I agree and really feel like I'm super close to beating her. Last time it was also really close. So thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2018 at 1:55pm
I agree with all said above, Mick, though I thought you played better last time and are well capable of playing that way again. While it's important to reflect on what you could do different after losses--no one ever learned anything from winning; can't remember who said that...--sometimes you just have to chalk it up to a bad day. Some of the rallies, fh to fh etc. you lost b/c maybe you just weren't as sharp as you normally are. You won those rallies last time. Lost them this time. Just a bad day at the office? Distracted? It happens to everyone. You only lost 9, 9, something, 8, something. This means 2 of those FH rallies won?  Different outcome, and you wouldn't even worry about what to change in your game against LPs.  

My advice, pick one thing from above--one and only one; more than that you can't focus on in play; start, say, with slowing down some, slower spinny loops--and try implementing that. You  are already well able to beat her. It's just a matter of relaxing and letting yourself do it. 

She's a great LP player though. Really like how she flat kills loose stuff. Really quick FH snap. I tend to loop kill instead and would be better off flat killing like she does. My compliments to ye both!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 2:12am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's a match I played last week against a BH long pips player.

I have some ideas about what I could have/should have done better.

1. Use my backhand more. She seems to have more trouble with my slow short, spinny but no power backhands.
2. Attack cross court after pivoting more often. She kept punishing my wide forehand when I committed down the line. Maybe take it slower with more spin so she can't chop block it back so fast.
3. Go for less power and more controlled shots until I have a better opportunity to kill the ball.
4. Aim more for her middle rather than her backhand. When I hit the ball there, she seems to be very uncomfortable using her backhand to block it. Her body is completely out of position.
5. Just get better by practicing more...
The point made by someone else about not pushing twice to her LP is good advice.  I've never understood why people do that; you're not going to improve you situation ever with that second push (well, rarely anyway).  Think of it this way: what you want coming to you are predictable, attackable balls.  The first push usually gets you a nice no-spin or top-spin ball that is easy to attack.  Push a second time, and you're inviting smashes (if your push goes high), or LP no-spin kill shots (if you push long with good backspin), or possible an awkwardly placed ball coming back (because it's easy for LP players to control and place such pushes).  

The other point I would emphasize is your #3.  When you make a really strong shot, it takes longer to recover, which makes it hard for you to get the next ball.  If your shot isn't an outright winner, the LPs are going to send it back weird and awkwardly places, and you'l be struggling to get in place for any sort of return shot, if you make it back at all.

Instead, the better plan is to go for controlled attacking shots until you see the opportunity for winners.  Sometimes you can make a series of controlled attacking shots, and sometimes you have to intersperse with pushes, but either way you keep the pressure up without leaving your own weaknesses wide open.

Where this plan gets harder is if you're weak on one side, because the LPs can push to your weak side and you can't put much pressure on them.  But it's still the right strategy.

Patience is the key to beating LPs. If you have no patience, then you can only win if you are the much stronger player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2018 at 2:32am
Just thought of sharing a strategy that worked well for me against LP players. It might suit you more if you don't mind losing, but it will improve your game I think. Serve long nospin or slight topspin to their BH, then keep on safe looping to their pips. It will seriously force you to up your FH topspin quality and feeling against underspin which will benefit you significantly in other matchups too! See if you're able to outlast the LP player. You have to be good at adjusting your racket angle depending on what spin you get, and not just blindly trying to overpower the spin.

With serve return, just try to soft flip everything and avoid pushes, then repeat the FH topspin to their pips until someone makes the first mistake.

When you can win using this strategy, you would have developed a really good FH topspin :) The other thing that you eventually will realize is that a topspin stroke is actually more consistent than pushes using inverted. The topspin drags the ball to the table and allows you a lot of room for error.

For reference, don't watch Ma Long or Zhang Jike, but maybe a player like Zhu Yuling, how she plays against choppers and how easy she lifts those underspin balls. There's no underspin ball that you can't lift with the correct racket angle, that applies for flips too. Once you're comfortable you can start closing the racket angle more and apply a bit more power.


Edited by blahness - 09/15/2018 at 2:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 10:00pm
Sorry for the delayed response, everyone. I've been frequenting the forums, but I had very long work hours this week (including work on Saturday and Sunday).

Thanks for the advice, Kevo. I actually ended up playing her again a few days later, but still couldn't do it. This time it went to 5 games, though. The last game I lost 4-11, but the 2 other sets I lost, I was actually leading 5-1 and 6-2, but ended up losing 9 and deuce. I need to stay concentrated and stick with what works in those situations. She actually made some unbelievable returns with her LP that game, but my camera was acting up so I didn't get to record most of it.

I think the problem I had was that I was trying to think of and implement too many things, and ended up overwhelming myself, failing to really do anything I had in mind!! I'll try take it slow like you said and just work on one. I think that'll work out better.

Thanks, benfb. I never intend to do it, but there are a few reasons why I end up pushing twice. The first one is that I end up going into auto-pilot and just push it because that's what I'm used to against inverted. After I push it and it pops, I remember. The second one is that I don't have the confidence the attack with my backhand because the ball looks so floaty. So I end up trying to push it back with a slightly closed racket angle (which doesn't work out well). Another reason is that sometimes the long push comes at me way faster than I expect, and my initial reaction is to push. All these are problems that I need to address though. I definitely need to overcome this!!

I DEFINITELY need to slow the game down. I get punished too much going for an all out attack. The main advice the long pips girl gave me was to loop with more control instead, just as you said. I do rush it a lot, so I need to work on my patience :(

Thanks, blahness! That sounds like a fun little challenge! I'll try it out the next time I play her. But I just can't help attacking the ball more aggressively when I feel like I can. The problem is that my aggressive balls are too slow for the size of my stroke :( I'll try real hard not to over commit!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:


I DEFINITELY need to slow the game down. I get punished too much going for an all out attack. The main advice the long pips girl gave me was to loop with more control instead, just as you said. I do rush it a lot, so I need to work on my patience :(

Thanks, blahness! That sounds like a fun little challenge! I'll try it out the next time I play her. But I just can't help attacking the ball more aggressively when I feel like I can. The problem is that my aggressive balls are too slow for the size of my stroke :( I'll try real hard not to over commit!! 

I think it'll be fun for the long pips player too as they get to practise their LP blocks or chops against topspin. Maybe it could even be practice and not a match situation where you'll feel pressured. Yeah I think you have to chill and slow down your stroke a bit, focus more on having a safe, stable stroke and recovering well. You should play the same controlled way that you do against topspin players and not feel pressured to end the point ASAP. I think your issue is that you feel you have to always brush and hit the ball very hard against underspin, which creates a fear of underspin in you. This little challenge will help you overcome your fear of underspin balls (it's really just a matter of angle adjustment!) and increase your confidence level against it. It's also very useful to have lots of gears against all kinds of balls. Having a stable topspin opener against underspin is extremely valuable in all matchups. 


Edited by blahness - 09/17/2018 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 12:14pm
Mick, check out this video and watch how Gucci plays this really good LP player. Slow spinny loops to the pips, as blahness says above, and then bang it out wide to the FH. I'm not sure of the actual result of the match but it is a great instructional video for attackers and LP blockers alike. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5TiPsd2-nA

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2018 at 10:29pm
Thanks blahness! Yeah, usually before we play a match we do some simple drills for like 10 minutes, so during that time I can definitely try to control the ball more with a slow heavy spin loop. The next time I play her I'll do this and post another video. Hopefully it goes well!!

That's a nice video, kevo. Thank you. We don't get to see many long pips players at the pro levels, so I rarely see how people handle it. I think that video is good because it's at a level much closer to what us mortals play at. I think Gucci lost that one, but no big deal :) Control seems to be the way to go. Control until you have an opening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2018 at 10:51pm
Totally agree with kevo, slow (and long) topspins is the worst type of shot for any pips player to handle.
I´m a short pips player and have issues when my opponent uses slow topspins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2018 at 11:32pm
Go on youtube and search for forum member pushblocker's video, who has played over 2200 level almost exclusively LP BH pushblocking.

He has stated that the most difficult opponents for him are SP hitters or inverted players who are good flat hitters. He wants more spin because the LP needs some spin to get reversal and to produce a faster return. Note how he takes spinny loops right off the bounce to produce a quick, low return.

I play LP players regularly. My go to tactic is give a light push deep to the LP and then flat hit the next ball at the elbow.

Mixing up pushes is also a good idea. I go light spin to not give them spin to work with most of the time, then occasionally a fast push with lots of spin. This often produces a netted return.





Edited by qpskfec - 09/19/2018 at 11:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2018 at 1:34am
Thanks TT newbie. I agree and will definitely be working on it more.

Thanks qpskfec. My general understanding has always been that flat hitting would be better. But I think for me, I need to play more of the control game. I've never been good at flat hitting. Spin over speed has always been my style, and while it would be great to switch between the two, I feel like I lack the sense for it. I could try it, but I probably can't do both control and flat hits at this point in skill level without compromising both strokes. But if I fail to play the control game, or once I'm able to do that but still feel like the long pips are getting me more than I'm getting them, I'll switch styles and give it a try!

I like your tactics, so I'll definitely try them out. I generally do serve quite light against long pips, so I'll just need to attack more to the elbow, and use more light pushes (something I'm bad at as I generally always try to push heavy).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2018 at 2:37am
Here is a surprise tactic against LP.

Try a long, HIGH, underspin serve to the LP. I chop down hard on the serve and make the ball bounce a foot or more over the table and land near the receivers end line.

It is almost impossible to return the ball low. The return is typically a floater that is easy to kill.

How long this tactic works for really depends on the receivers ability to adapt. Most LP players never practice receiving this kind of ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2018 at 11:37am
I play her style, and it is not pushblocker's style. If you watch pushblocker's video and kevo's provided video, you can see the difference. With all due respect, unless your opp plays with "Light curing LP", don't bother with pushblocker's videos (may be watch for fun). I am surprised that you cannot beat her. Anyway, all the above tactics are good info. However, it does not help your games in the long run. If your opp can adapt in the final game, you will lose the match anyway. The followings are what I told a "over 500 CAN rating more than me" player on how to beat me:
1. keep reminding yourself that you have time (no rush,  be patient)
2. Read this page (understanding LP)
3. Know your own spin (without knowing your own spin, you just guess the LP's return)


Edited by Egghead - 09/21/2018 at 1:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2018 at 1:15pm
Where is her crossover point? Does she cover the entire endline with LP, and then pivot for her fh smash opportunistically when she sees a floater?

Playing consistent loops at someone's crossover point is always a reasonable tactic. And some LP blockers have their crossover way off their right hip after they can't hit their lp bh in a chicken-wing position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2018 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

I play her style, and it is not pushblocker's style. If you watch pushblocker's video and kevo's provided video, you can see the difference. With all due respect, unless your opp plays with "Light curing LP", don't bother with pushblocker's videos (may be watch for fun). I am surprised that you cannot beat her. Anyway, all the above tactics are good info. However, it does not help your games in the long run. If your opp can adapt in the final game, you will lose the match anyway. The followings are what I told a "over 500 CAN rating more than me" player on how to beat me:
1. keep reminding yourself that you have time (no rush,  be patient)
2. Read this page (understanding LP)
3. Know your own spin (without knowing your own spin, you just guess the LP's return)






Players using inverted rubbers should build a shrine to Greg for his work to dispel myths about pips and antispin rubbers. That link above should be printed out and hung in a prominent place in every TT club.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2018 at 7:22pm
In addition to many good suggestions above. 
Serve short. She is very short with little reach. Play a little short game till she pops one up. Then flip kill the ball
Long dead or long light topspin shots to her BH. Hit or loopkill the return.
In tournament play, do not be afraid to play to a LP forehand.
Most LP players like spin. Do not give it to them.
Gambler Hinoki Vector or AVX J power-Double inverted. Gambler mech tek FH black on FH, tibhar elp or T05 red on BH. I can't seem to commit....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2018 at 8:22pm
Strategy feedback
- like others have said, your backhand is fairly weak against her LP hitting and bumping
- to help avoid this, when you push, you're better off pushing to her FH side most of the time.  The only times you can push BH is when you really have a good read on the ball/spin, then push deep (and wide) to her BH.  Most of the time the trajectory and depth on your pushes is not strong enough to push to her BH.
- your FH attack is good, but you need to attack wider angles.  Wide BH, wide FH, elbow.   Just simply going crosscourt to her BH isn't great because she plays that shot well on her LP then the burden is on you again to make a good attack
- Her FH serve return is a bit weak, but she begins to adjust well at point and begin to attack your serves to her FH.  You can do better controlling placement and angle of your FH serve, mixing in a short serve (don't remember seeing any in the video) and more wide angle serves to the FH (the ones where she has to step out wide are the most difficult for her).  Overall I think you could have been more thoughtful with your serves in terms of placement and trajectory

Technical feedback:
- I think your recovery (stroke length and footwork) after you loop needs to be tightened a lot.  That's one of the primary reasons she gives you trouble.  This is not something that is fixed easily though.  For example you lose pretty much every point you have to take a cross-over step loop.
- Backhand can be more comfortable vs pips.  BH you do a lot more guessing when it comes to how much spin is on the ball. (BH is the always first place to attack for LP hitters/blockers, players that can give me trouble are those with a steady backhand that don't overreact to the LP block).  Only way to improve this is to do drills on BH side vs LP just to establish a baseline level of comfort.


Slow spinny topspins can be effective, but for you its pointless for you to hit those shots until you tighten up your stroke in footwork.  Hitting Gucci's style of spinny loop of course works well but I think you are a long ways off to a point where you can execute that level of loop with that consistency.  I'm not sure if your recovery or footwork is good enough to spinny loop 3+ times into LP (not to mention the key for spinny loops to work is to have the bounce at the baseline).

Ultimately, you don't need to do those kind of things to beat your opponent.  I hesitate trying to show an example of two 2400 level players playing and suggesting to players who are not near that level to adopt a similar strategy. Those two are playing a whole different game that necessitates a whole different level of strategy and execution of shots that are likely out of the realm of capability of others.  Rather than looking at the strategy the key things to look at is how good his footwork and stroke is which allows him to play the whole table with his forehand and create opportunities for himself.

Just remember there's two different types of advice, strategy - adjustments you can make in a match, and technique - technical things for you to work on in practice that will make deployment of a new strategy possible or improve execution of existing strategies.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote juanma4080 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2018 at 2:35am
Oh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2018 at 9:55am
Pongmaster's great post made me think of two other things ypu might think about. She won points basically in two ways fh killing a pop-up or you missing a shot. So if you focus on not giving her any easy fhs, you can be as patient as you need to be playing to her pips. So if you are gping to make a loose ball, be sure if it fsr over on her bh side. And don't overcommit to an attack until you get an easy ball and have good body position yourself   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2018 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

In addition to many good suggestions above. 
Serve short. She is very short with little reach. Play a little short game till she pops one up. Then flip kill the ball
Long dead or long light topspin shots to her BH. Hit or loopkill the return.
In tournament play, do not be afraid to play to a LP forehand.
Most LP players like spin. Do not give it to them.
Unless she is a novice, you never play short game with a LP player LOL
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2018 at 8:53pm
Mickd… my first response would be WHY do you keep hitting FH drives? She blocks those all day. Put that energy into a real high arcing heavy topspin, extreme shallow or deep the better.

You do not seem to have a working serve/attack plan.

I would advocate serving VERY HEAVY UNDERSPIN to her short FH or middle short. This gets her accustomed to the idea your underspin motion is very heavy. Later, you can back off the spin for variation and get some real meatballs back to hit or loop heavy. Later, also serve very fast and deep to body or BH corner. Change the spin, you will still get a long ball. Spin heavy if it is low, smack the crap outta it if it is high. You have the FH firepower to do that.

When you can start off serving very heavy underspin short, then you get 3 variations available to you right away.

- Spin variation (she will net balls or popup or give it to you long) (This feeds your attack and deflates her)

- Depth variation (she can become hesitant to commit to one depth, this makes your serve more effective and her return weaker - higher/longer to be safe)

- Speed variation (you will be maker her function randomly at different speeds, she will mis-read, hurry, be too late, or too early - this will give you errors or easier balls to attack)

Pushing with medium underspin to the middle depth of the table is EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTS. Unless you want a favorable date after the match, do not give her what she is craving. I understand you are trying to be safe, but this is the first shot in hew shot sequence she is working on you - push fast off bounce with pips and kill your spin, get a popup, then turn around, FH hammer the ball for winner, then she kiss her bicep. 

Get to the ball earlier and use as much angle as you can safely. TRY to give it back dead or light spin. Vary with real heavy return. Land those deep or at angles. 

A surprise short topspin serve to her middle short or a fast deep topspin serve to her middle or BH corner will get you a long dead ball or a long light underspin. You know how to finish that ball strong - go for it.

A variation is a real fast heavy underspin to he deep FH. She did not show you she can open vs heavy underspin on FH. If she pushes, step around and FH heavy spin the ball right at her or her BH. Finish the high return if it lands.

I am making the assumption that you can do a very heavy serve very short when you want it and that you can make a very heavy slow topspin when you want it... without those two shots, you will have to play depth and placement and fight it out each point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2018 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Pongmaster's great post made me think of two other things ypu might think about. She won points basically in two ways fh killing a pop-up or you missing a shot. So if you focus on not giving her any easy fhs, you can be as patient as you need to be playing to her pips. So if you are gping to make a loose ball, be sure if it fsr over on her bh side. And don't overcommit to an attack until you get an easy ball and have good body position yourself   
 

The problem with that game plan is OP is not correctly reading the second ball (her push with the pips) consistently. If he tries to push a dead ball he thinks has some underspin on it, he will pop it up and feed the troll of her power FH over and over.

To reduce her BH space, she is playing vs lefty, so she pushes the ball deep and dead as fast as she can safely to confuse/rush/make him indecisive and push... when she fast pushes with pips to his BH corner at an angle and slides over to the BH corner... there is almost no room left on BH, the whole table is her FH. She would punk him over and over doing that until he reads her dead push.

I see where you are coming from, MINIMIZE the damage by going to the BH... but she will crush him that way. OP is way better off going for angles or depth to FH right away to stay safe and out of that kind of trouble.

A lot of LP players who take nearly everything with pips will slide to middle of table... the adjustment would be for the most extreme angle to her BH then attack to open area or right back where she was... assuming she in moving to cover open area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2018 at 4:42am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

In addition to many good suggestions above. 
Serve short. She is very short with little reach. Play a little short game till she pops one up. Then flip kill the ball
Long dead or long light topspin shots to her BH. Hit or loopkill the return.
In tournament play, do not be afraid to play to a LP forehand.
Most LP players like spin. Do not give it to them.
Unless she is a novice, you never play short game with a LP player LOL

Indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2018 at 6:15am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Pongmaster's great post made me think of two other things ypu might think about. She won points basically in two ways fh killing a pop-up or you missing a shot. So if you focus on not giving her any easy fhs, you can be as patient as you need to be playing to her pips. So if you are gping to make a loose ball, be sure if it fsr over on her bh side. And don't overcommit to an attack until you get an easy ball and have good body position yourself   
 

The problem with that game plan is OP is not correctly reading the second ball (her push with the pips) consistently. If he tries to push a dead ball he thinks has some underspin on it, he will pop it up and feed the troll of her power FH over and over.

To reduce her BH space, she is playing vs lefty, so she pushes the ball deep and dead as fast as she can safely to confuse/rush/make him indecisive and push... when she fast pushes with pips to his BH corner at an angle and slides over to the BH corner... there is almost no room left on BH, the whole table is her FH. She would punk him over and over doing that until he reads her dead push.

I see where you are coming from, MINIMIZE the damage by going to the BH... but she will crush him that way. OP is way better off going for angles or depth to FH right away to stay safe and out of that kind of trouble.

A lot of LP players who take nearly everything with pips will slide to middle of table... the adjustment would be for the most extreme angle to her BH then attack to open area or right back where she was... assuming she in moving to cover open area.


Well if he can't handle her receive of a long no-spin serve he lost the match before they started. I should watch it again if I want to give advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2018 at 7:58pm
First, thank you so much everyone for the replies. I'm sorry I haven't been able to get back to everyone as quickly as I usually would. I probably won't be able to reply to every single point listed, but know that I did read them all (multiple times) and these points will probably help a lot of the other members with similar weaknesses as me!!

@qpskfec - Thank you. I'll try that. It does sound like it would have success up to a few times in a match!

@Egghead - Haha maybe I'm just a lot worse than my videos suggest (the opposite of most people hehe). I read the article twice and while I of course know most of it already, it's still good to get a refresh on it. I think practice will be key to get reading the pips better. Not rushing is great advice. Most the time I rush to the ball expecting it to come faster than it does.

@BRS - That's actually a good question. I've always just considered her crossover point the same as for me, at the elbow. But now that you mention it, everyone would be different and against someone who favours the pips, their crossover point is likely a little more towards their forehand side. I'll think about this more the next time I play her!

@vvk1 - Yes, I wish I saw that article 2 or more years ago when I was REALLY REALLY struggling with pips!

@vanjr - Thank you. I think serving short against her can work, and I have done it a few times, but only to her short, wide forehand corner where she still sometimes receives using her inverted rubber instead. The reason why I don't serve short is because she'll play the ball back extremely uncomfortably wide short by swiping the side of the ball or deep long and fast. I've never had luck with short serves against long pips users (I have tried them against her).

To be continued!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 1:53am
@pongmaster - Thanks a lot for the detailed write up! I played her once more a few days after the video in the OP and tried pushing more to her forehand. It did work okay, but after she got used to my push, she was attacking them quite consistently. I still do think it's her weaker side, and I think I can abuse it more by returning her loops by playing the angles more. When I was passive on the return, she just smashed the next ball. I'll definitely work on my backhand against LP block. Usually when I drill with her before we play a match, I just use my forehand because I'm worried missing too much will hinder her practice. But I guess I'll never get used to it unless I practice it, so next time I'll try it out :)

@juanma4080 - Hi!

@BRS - Yeah. I think if I improved any of those 2 areas I should be able to beat her pretty easily. Right now the sets are always really close and often comes down to 1 or 2 points.

@Egghead - Yeah, short serves don't work well at all!!

@BH-Man - Help! I just can't help it lol. I just can't help going all in on those shots. I lack patience... But I definitely will work the slow spinny loop into my game. I actually do have it already, I just don't play it for some reason. I actually play it a lot more against inverted players. I think it's because the long pips push returns have less spin, so I try to kill it.

As for the short serves, I'm not sure how well they'll work. I find it really hard to read the spin and placement on the ball if i serve short, with heavy or light spin. I'm not sure if I'm just lacking the skill here, but I really think long is the way to go unless it's to her wide short forehand, which she occasionally returns using inverted. That said, my heavy underspin serve isn't very heavy. But it's tricky enough (because of the unintended side spin) that nearly all similar skilled players dump the first into the net.

As for the serve strategies, some of them sound pretty good, so I'll keep them in mind. Whenever I serve heavy under long and fast to her forehand, I can usually score the point, so I'll do that more often. It's probably a 50/50 she dumps it into the net.

@vvk1 - Yes!

@BRS - I think I'm generally okay attacking the receive from a long no-spin serve. But yeah, the push into popup is a big problem that I'll work on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 2:41am
The serve strategies... it is great if you get points, but showing that heavy short early opens up a whole new world of variation and 3rd ball attack possibilities... that is what is golden out of it all. Once you get what you want on your serve, she will know you own her on serve and can get 2 points when you want it. That puts a LOT of pressure on her.
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