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Why China's Dominance Is Unmatched

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blahness View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2018 at 4:14am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The views on innovation of various well-established members are appalling here, to say the least.

By that logic, the Europeans, namely the Hungarians and Romanians, were beaten by Japanese because they were resistant to change. After a decade of defeats, Hungary and Sweden then "copied" from Japan when they ditched the defensive style. The Japanese were then beaten by the Chinese and fell into oblivion because they held on to their "FH-only" philosophy.

Even more, ITTF sources indicate Europe and Japan, among others, were resistant to the equipment standardization at first, yet China embraced and lobbied for it.

Last but not least, I dug up the source for the 61%.

And to wrap up this post, here is what the late Japanese 藤井基男(Motoo Fujii), WTTC XD brozne medalist in 1956, former principal photographer for magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, and table tennis historian, wrote in his book "卓球 知識の泉", or "Table Tennis: Fountain of Knowledge" in English:

Look up its meaning at Google Translate, if you will.
Quote 33 〈中国の強さ〉四つの秘密
...
〈4〉絶えざる技術革新
 一九五○年代の日本の時代には、技術革新も用具革新も、日本は世界の先頭だった。
 六○年代以降は、中国が世界の先頭に立っている。
①粒高ラバーとシェークの異質ラバーによるラケット反転使用(カット主戦型)
②シェーク異質ラバーによるラケット反転使用(前陣攻守型 ― 例・蔡振華、鄧亜萍)
③ペンホルダーラケット裏面活用型(七一年のサービス活用、近年の劉国梁などによる裏面バックハンド攻撃)
④さまざまなニューサービス(例:投げ上げサービス)
……などなど。
 李富栄氏は、先の講習会でこう語った。「指導者の仕事はただ管理指導するだけではなくて、常に新しいものについての研究をすることです」


Motoo Fujii and Ichiro Ogimura


It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2018 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

China is big, with a large population. Imagine if Europe played as one nation, but the Chinese only could represent nationally in divided provinces, with their best players spread throughout. As far as innovations go, over the last 70 years most have come from Japan and Europe, the Chinese are very good at copying. Japan = sponge rubber
Europe = speed glue

 The Chinese lost to Hungary and Sweden in the Swathling cup because they were slow to change, then moved away from the flat hitting/counter hit game to develop their own version of Euro style, the first product of this was Kong Ling hui, who trained with the Swedes.




Romania is also a powerhouse they have pletea ionescu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2018 at 12:44am
I don't think it's rocket science that a list of innovations in a sport drawn up by citizens of one country / region is likely to be biased towards that country, regardless of which country it is. Also not rocket science that people from other places may disagree with the list. As someone has already pointed out, the chiquita is a glaring omission.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2018 at 2:05am
Originally posted by ttTurkey ttTurkey wrote:

I don't think it's rocket science that a list of innovations in a sport drawn up by citizens of one country / region is likely to be biased towards that country, regardless of which country it is. Also not rocket science that people from other places may disagree with the list. As someone has already pointed out, the chiquita is a glaring omission.

Labeling the list, 

'Chinese' and 'foreign' on a WW forum gives the game awayWink

The Older I get, The better I was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2018 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

More like ignorance, as clearly seen from the comment on RPB. Ironically, the sour comments happen to come from those countries with little contribution in modern table tennis and still see the sport nothing more than a mere pastime.

And on chiquita, the 1st list was first published in 1990 and the 2nd in 2001. The chiquita was still in its infancy in the late 90's and didn't gain traction world-wide until the mid-2000.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2018 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread "The birth of modern table tennis?"



27 to 19, that's around 58% in 2006. Roughly 3 more innovations have been added since then.

Most of these are very old innovations and none of these really have much to do with China's Dominance. 


Edited by kenneyy88 - 10/10/2018 at 8:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 11:27am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

More like ignorance, as clearly seen from the comment on RPB. Ironically, the sour comments happen to come from those countries with little contribution in modern table tennis and still see the sport nothing more than a mere pastime.

And on chiquita, the 1st list was first published in 1990 and the 2nd in 2001. The chiquita was still in its infancy in the late 90's and didn't gain traction world-wide until the mid-2000.


I have seen chiquita in chinese league in 1998
and side variation that nobody uses yoday
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The views on innovation of various well-established members are appalling here, to say the least.

 

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...  

Now, now guys, you are claiming anti-Chinese sentiment in this thread when there really isn't any.  If we changed the first list into non-Chinese names, you would probably be very skeptical of it also.  But if someone said Lebron James is not innovative because he's basically using moves invented by Dr. J, it does not mean that Lebron is not great.  It does not mean that he does not revolutionize existing techniques and take them to another level.  Nobody can deny his achievements but people are not going to believe if someone says he invented the power forward dunk move to the basket.  

First, really, to me, the list just looks silly.  Here are a couple of examples:
11. Xu Shaofa's high-toss serve(1973) - you're telling me from the worlds 1926 to 1973, not one TT player thought about tossing the serve high? As an aside, I think I may have seen Ogimura doing the high toss serve in a video somewhere.  But in the end, nobody is saying XSF is not great.  Also, I love his balls! (in a non-sexual way lol!)

26. Kong Linghui's shakehand backhand "kuai si" technique(1997) (TL's note: kuai si, literally quick rip, an off-the-bounce backhand loop stroke used on backspin and topspin) - now come on, I know this is wrong because Erik Lindh was already doing the off the bounce BH loop.  Was KLH's kuai si much better? Sure.  But I'll go back to this.

Second, I think the list was missing a couple of very important innovations:

1.  Gergely and speed glue.  Ok, this was more of a discovery and not really a technique but man, it's like Alexander Fleming discovering penicillin.  This revolutionized (or dumbed down depending on who you ask) the game but to not see it on the list makes me very skeptical.

2.  Ma Wenge speed gluing Chinese rubber.  Now this guy was a true innovator.  I think I read an interview somewhere (from Chung Lau I think) where he said he and Cai Zhenhua used to argue about this.  I can only imagine the conversation:
Cai: Wenge, we're ready to practice.  Why are you late?!
MW: I'm gluing my racket.  It's still not dry.
Cai: Didn't you glue it earlier today? Why are you doing it again?
MW: It's called speed glue.  I have to do it all the time before playing.
Cai: Huh?
MW: It's so the sponge can absorb... ah, forget it.  Just give me a few minutes.

Every CNT member should really thank MW and donate a few yuans in his GoFundMe account.

Back to KLH's kuai si, I will admit that the CNT is being held to a higher standard.  The reason I believe is resources.  Let's take Erik Lindh, who is he practicing his kuai si with? Persson, Waldner, Appelgren, great players.  But is he going to tell them "hey guys, give me your best underspin push so I can practice the BH off the bounce rip".  No, because those guys are going to hold back.  They're not going to give him their best pushes because they might face him in a major tournament.  In turn, Lindh is not going to give his best BH rips for the same reason.  So they're all going to hold out.

Now with KLH, he's got the CNT B team plus a half dozen 2800+ provincial players at his disposal.  When he says "give me your best push so I can practice my kuai si", they won't hold back.  They have one single job and that is to make KLH better.  Everybody is Team Kong.  It's a very different practice mentality when you know the player across from you is there solely for you to improve.  Much like Cheng Yinghua was there to improve Jiang Jialiang.  When JJ says give me your best serve and third ball to mimic Waldner, Cheng gives 110%.  So maybe, in my view, the threshold for being "innovative" his higher for the CNT.

To compare, for Yao Ming and Shaq, the standard will be higher for Shaq.  He's around the best players, tallest centers, most athletic forwards, quickest guards, and he has access to advice from guys like Kareem and Bill Russell.  So why wouldn't Shaq be great with all those resources? Why won't Kong be great with all those resources? Steel sharpens steel.

In closing, relax Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 5:12pm
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?14666-Peter-Korbel-Chiquita-story


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

More like ignorance, as clearly seen from the comment on RPB. Ironically, the sour comments happen to come from those countries with little contribution in modern table tennis and still see the sport nothing more than a mere pastime.

And on chiquita, the 1st list was first published in 1990 and the 2nd in 2001. The chiquita was still in its infancy in the late 90's and didn't gain traction world-wide until the mid-2000.


I have seen chiquita in chinese league in 1998
and side variation that nobody uses yoday

Practically all sources in China and Japan credit Korbel for inventing chiquita and first used it on the world stage at the WTTC 1991. I pointed that out roughly 9 months before the video was posted on youtube.

There's another view that Saive "invented" chiquita when goofing around in training but never worked on developing it.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 3:16pm
 we had that nice discussion about the chiquita in 2/14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 3:43pm
Thank you for providing another case of ignorance. Except 1949-1952, players didn't have to toss until 1965, when they banned the 合力發球, you guessed it, another Chinese innovation that didn't make the list. Anyway.

Xu Shaofa is the first player to use the high-toss serve on the world stage. Motoo Fujii's quote mentions it already. Here is another one from Ito Jota, a columnist of Table Tennis Kingdom:

https://world-tt.com/blog/johta/2016/08/
Quote そして、1960年以降、世界の卓球の技術革新をリードしてきたのが中国なのだ。1970年代には投げ上げサービス、1980年代にはボディハイドサービス、1990年代にはペン裏面打法、そして2000年代にDBドライブというわけだ。

"And since 1960, China has led the world of table tennis in innovation. In the 1970s it was the high toss serve, in the 1980s it was the hidden serve, in the 1990s it was the RPB, and in the 2000s it was the DB drive."

Note: DB drive - the Chinese polished version of chiquita





But he could be biased, right?

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/History/History-of-USATT/Volume-XIII/Chapter-9
Quote Might as well try to stay high-minded (what I and others of this USTTA time in History can’t always be). Here’s Larry again—on “The High Toss Serve” (Timmy’s, Jan., 1984, 17):

“One of the most effective serves in table tennis is the high-toss serve. First used effectively by the Chinese, it is now used, at least sometimes, by almost all top players. Since the ball drops further on the high toss than on the short toss, and so at contact point is traveling much faster than it would be otherwise, the high-toss receiver can often deceptively throw an opponent’s timing off by unpredictably choosing to put more or less spin on the ball than he would ordinarily.


For those genuinely interested, here are 2 articles on 合力發球 and the high toss serve in Chinese.

http://cswbszb.chinajilin.com.cn/html/2012-05/16/content_804254.htm
http://chengangsports.blog.sohu.com/216795065.html

As for KLH's kuai si, I have run out of patience to write here.

Edited by zeio - 10/12/2018 at 3:51pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 hours 25 minutes ago at 11:35am
Great info. on the high toss serve! But you may have taken my post too literally.  I wrote Ogimura's name but I could have just written any other player in that ~50 year time frame before XSF.  The point was and still is that China is not great because of their innovation.  Otherwise, other countries would just invent new shots like Korbel did with the banana flip.  Lebron James is not great because he invents new types of dunks.  Anyway, you seem to be emotionally attached to this list so I'll leave it as is.  I'm starting to think that you wrote the list Wink Thanks as always for your valuable contribution to this forum.
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