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2018 Youth Olympics Oct. 8-18

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 11:47am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Somebody earlier in the thread noticed the non existence of a Chiquita in Truls’ game. I agree that one cannot make it to the top without it. He must add it to his arsenal.to cancel 3rd ball attacks out. He won’t be world or Olympic champ without it. No Chiquita = too many unblockable 3rd ball kills!


Agreed. He has very strong FH but needs to improve his BH. Also, he needs to get more used to Chinese rubber. DHS H3 is a totally different rubber from European/Japanese rubbers. It has low throw angle and the ball doesn't bounce high after landing on the table. See how many of his blocks/counters (not only him, same to other players like Kanak, Haramoto) were missed or went into the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

While record speaks for itself alright, Jha beat Lin is still a big surprise to me as well as to many others.


I was not surprised at all because I knew jha was good enough to beat Lin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 12:11pm
Regardless of where Kanak's ranking should/shouldn't be, we in the USA have reason to be very excited about a male USA player in a loooong time.  He could be the Hugo Calderano of North America.  He's got a good head on his shoulders.  He'll develop power as he grows older and trains for it.  Great representative for USA Table Tennis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

While record speaks for itself alright, Jha beat Lin is still a big surprise to me as well as to many others.

Well, the point is that too many people like to believe that ELO is everything and performance is not as important. My point is that it isn't always straightforward to claim that someone's seeding is too high especially based on silly evidence which has one ranked lower than players he had either beaten or had close matches with.  Last year Kanak almost beat Truls at WJTTC.  Age is not on Kanak's side vsTruls and it is quite possible that Lin Yun Ju has more upside.   But Kanak had the #2 seed based on prior performance all over Europe and deserved it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 2:28pm
Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patwhall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

Good tournament for Jha. Today will look ugly for him, but he was just overseeded because of his inflated world ranking. I think the 8 seed would have been about right for him, after Harimoto, Wang/Lin, Moregard/Sgouropoulos, Pletea/Sidorenko.
No,  Kanak does not have an inflated world ranking. Remember he did beat Wct 3:0

I am not defending WCT but can you at least be fair and not so double standard?
Screamingmoto lost to Freitas, WCQ, Matsudaira and Liang JingKun in the recent memory.  
In fact, spanked by LJK and WCQ.  All of them ranked below Screamingmoto.  
I didn't see you jump out and say he's overrated.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Regardless of where Kanak's ranking should/shouldn't be, we in the USA have reason to be very excited about a male USA player in a loooong time.  He could be the Hugo Calderano of North America.  He's got a good head on his shoulders.  He'll develop power as he grows older and trains for it.  Great representative for USA Table Tennis.
not to take anything away, but if a lot of us national team members would live in Europe, they all would be very good. It's a great achievement for him as an individual, but the us table tennis system didn't really do anything for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 3:13pm
When is the doubles on? Anyone know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.

How do you know he hasn't already?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 3:41pm
"To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano)."

was going to make a similar comment, but you saved me from that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

When is the doubles on? Anyone know?


Tomorrow, 10/12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

"To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano)."

was going to make a similar comment, but you saved me from that.
good save! (Brazil is in South America.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 4:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.

The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....


I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PythonMonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.

The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....

Jha looked so outclassed against Wang I probably overreacted, but mostly I'm guilty as charged on this one. I rated Jha lower than Pletea based on the eye test. Lower than Sidorenko for the same reason and because Sidorenko performed much better against Wang. But you can't argue with results. Let's see how Jha does against Pletea on Saturday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.


The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....




Truth is we don't really have enough data to know whether he's better than Pletea. I would suggest it is a coin flip. But from rankings/seedings etc you would expect Jha to be a prohibitive favourite right? The WJTTC will be interesting.

Also it's not just eye test. You can also look at non junior results. Jha has some great wins over top 100 players but so do all these guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by patwhall patwhall wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

[QUOTE=PythonMonty]Good tournament for Jha. Today will look ugly for him, but he was just overseeded because of his inflated world ranking. I think the 8 seed would have been about right for him, after Harimoto, Wang/Lin, Moregard/Sgouropoulos, Pletea/Sidorenko.

No,  Kanak does not have an inflated world ranking. Remember he did beat Wct 3:0


I am not defending WCT but can you at least be fair and not so double standard?
Screamingmoto lost to Freitas, WCQ, Matsudaira and Liang JingKun in the recent memory.  
In fact, spanked by LJK and WCQ.  All of them ranked below Screamingmoto.  
I didn't see you jump out and say he's overrated.  
[/QUOT

Also lost to niu guankai and ruwen and some koreans
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.


The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....




Truth is we don't really have enough data to know whether he's better than Pletea. I would suggest it is a coin flip. But from rankings/seedings etc you would expect Jha to be a prohibitive favourite right? The WJTTC will be interesting.

Also it's not just eye test. You can also look at non junior results. Jha has some great wins over top 100 players but so do all these guys.

He's beaten Pletea twice, once last year, once this year.  Since you claim to have no data, why would you seed Jha below someone he has beaten twice?  Since these juniors are also playing junior tournaments, why were they not seeded higher than he was?

This is a JUNIOR tournament.  It might sound funny to you, but even when Harimoto was beating seniors, he was still losing to a few juniors because playing at the junior level has its own competitive nuances.  Kanak is the highest rated junior on the JUNIOR (18 and under) tour.  He may not have a career as great as people you think he should be rated lower than.  But he competed the best as a junior and got the ranking he deserved.  You don't need to fix his ranking because you know he is worse than someone he has beaten twice.

There is nothing wrong with a #2 seed losing early - upsets happen all the time.  But what I don't get is why when a #2 seed reaches the semis, people still have to put him down and say that his seeding was undeserved after he has proven it clearly was.  To make the top 4 and be ranked in the top 2 is very reasonable.


Edited by NextLevel - 10/11/2018 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.


The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....




Truth is we don't really have enough data to know whether he's better than Pletea. I would suggest it is a coin flip. But from rankings/seedings etc you would expect Jha to be a prohibitive favourite right? The WJTTC will be interesting.

Also it's not just eye test. You can also look at non junior results. Jha has some great wins over top 100 players but so do all these guys.


He's beaten Pletea twice, once last year, once this year.  Since you claim to have no data, why would you seed Jha below someone he has beaten twice?  Since these juniors are also playing junior tournaments, why were they not seeded higher than he was?

This is a JUNIOR tournament.  It might sound funny to you, but even when Harimoto was beating seniors, he was still losing to a few juniors because playing at the junior level has its own competitive nuances.  Kanak is the highest rated junior on the JUNIOR (18 and under) tour.  He may not have a career as great as people you think he should be rated lower than.  But he competed the best as a junior and got the ranking he deserved.  You don't need to fix his ranking because you know he is worse than someone he has beaten twice.

There is nothing wrong with a #2 seed losing early - upsets happen all the time.  But what I don't get is why when a #2 seed reaches the semis, people still have to put him down and say that his seeding was undeserved after he has proven it clearly was.  To make the top 4 and be ranked in the top 2 is very reasonable.



It is, but at the same time you are not acknowledging the benefit of the draw being number 2 seed gave him. He didn't have to play the top 5 Europeans and didn't meet the top 3 Asian until the semi. That wasn't true conversely for anyone else. He played the whole junior circuit. How many of those tournaments did the rest play? How many ITTF events has he played compared to others and also WTTTC to get ranking points? Meanwhile Truls, Pletea etc are like 200 in the world. Wang Chuqin isn't even in the top 100.

Not sure why you are obsessively protective that his seed and rank are somehow correct and it's an insult to say it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. It really isn't. Jha is as good as the top European players, weaker than the top asians. That's it. He is not the number one junior in the world in terms of ability, not even number 2. And that's OK! He's still a top prospect who has a real shot at top 20 in the world in his future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Regardless of where Kanak's ranking should/shouldn't be, we in the USA have reason to be very excited about a male USA player in a loooong time.  He could be the Hugo Calderano of North America.  He's got a good head on his shoulders.  He'll develop power as he grows older and trains for it.  Great representative for USA Table Tennis.
not to take anything away, but if a lot of us national team members would live in Europe, they all would be very good. It's a great achievement for him as an individual, but the us table tennis system didn't really do anything for that.
It's true that the USA does not have the infrastructure for elite level competition (yet) and U.S. National players like Kanak, Nick Tio, and Wu Yue are training in Europe.  For now at least, that's how the US team will have to develop.  ICC gave Kanak a very good start to his table tennis career, and I'm sure he's grateful for that.  He hopes to inspire USA table tennis players to achieve greater results:


"For me and Lily to both win a medal shows, that the U.S. is slowly getting better and can hopefully do well at the senior level in the future."

"I think the sport will gain a lot of popularity. Table tennis is not so well-known in the U.S. as a serious sport, so I hope it becomes more popular with these results."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 9:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 10:03pm
  ICC gave Kanak a very good start to his table tennis career, and I'm sure he's grateful for that.  He hopes to inspire USA table tennis players to achieve greater results:


"For me and Lily to both win a medal shows, that the U.S. is slowly getting better and can hopefully do well at the senior level in the future."

"I think the sport will gain a lot of popularity. Table tennis is not so well-known in the U.S. as a serious sport, so I hope it becomes more popular with these results."
[/QUOTE]

Kanak is NOT a produce of ICC.  He started with Stefan Feth when he was 5 years old and has trained with Stefan at the WCTTA ever since. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.


The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....




Truth is we don't really have enough data to know whether he's better than Pletea. I would suggest it is a coin flip. But from rankings/seedings etc you would expect Jha to be a prohibitive favourite right? The WJTTC will be interesting.

Also it's not just eye test. You can also look at non junior results. Jha has some great wins over top 100 players but so do all these guys.


He's beaten Pletea twice, once last year, once this year.  Since you claim to have no data, why would you seed Jha below someone he has beaten twice?  Since these juniors are also playing junior tournaments, why were they not seeded higher than he was?

This is a JUNIOR tournament.  It might sound funny to you, but even when Harimoto was beating seniors, he was still losing to a few juniors because playing at the junior level has its own competitive nuances.  Kanak is the highest rated junior on the JUNIOR (18 and under) tour.  He may not have a career as great as people you think he should be rated lower than.  But he competed the best as a junior and got the ranking he deserved.  You don't need to fix his ranking because you know he is worse than someone he has beaten twice.

There is nothing wrong with a #2 seed losing early - upsets happen all the time.  But what I don't get is why when a #2 seed reaches the semis, people still have to put him down and say that his seeding was undeserved after he has proven it clearly was.  To make the top 4 and be ranked in the top 2 is very reasonable.



It is, but at the same time you are not acknowledging the benefit of the draw being number 2 seed gave him. He didn't have to play the top 5 Europeans and didn't meet the top 3 Asian until the semi. That wasn't true conversely for anyone else. He played the whole junior circuit. How many of those tournaments did the rest play? How many ITTF events has he played compared to others and also WTTTC to get ranking points? Meanwhile Truls, Pletea etc are like 200 in the world. Wang Chuqin isn't even in the top 100.

Not sure why you are obsessively protective that his seed and rank are somehow correct and it's an insult to say it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. It really isn't. Jha is as good as the top European players, weaker than the top asians. That's it. He is not the number one junior in the world in terms of ability, not even number 2. And that's OK! He's still a top prospect who has a real shot at top 20 in the world in his future.

And how does your analysis equate to ranking him #8 anhd ranking him lower than players he has beaten?

The point of being a higher seed is getting an easier draw.  One of the problems with the old ranking system was that it seeded players well enough to give the top Chinese easy draws almost every time.  But no one complained about this.  Yet one draw that Kanak earned through his performance leads to people doubting him.  And then saying that he is going to choke at the next tournament to prove them right.

And he beat a top 3 Asian.  He beat one of the top Asians that he is weaker than.  Yet rather than accept this, we are looking for excuses.  So what if he is not the top junior in the world in terms of ability?  He is older than most juniors.  But his performance level, all things adjusted for, gave him a top ranking.  And he defended it.  And made a lot of people who kept on arguing he was clearly out of his league look like idiots.  

But we can't accept the errors.  We just keep using the eye test to say Pletea is the better player.  While Pletea is probably still trying to figure out how to beat Kanak.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZhouZhekai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 11:14pm
I have to disagree. The one thing about the US Sports system in non high school sports, and even some high school sports like fencing is that the USA can attract great foreign players as coaches (in rich areas/suburbs of the country because parents are whiling to pay  large amounts of money to get coaching for child). In fact my club all but two coaches are 2500+(probably higher) , and is also the reason the USA could attract people like Stellan Bengston, Stefan Feth, and Wang Hao(the chopper). 
This results in a relatively small,  but extremely well coached group of athletes up until high school years where then most let off.  And i think that Khanak Jha, Ariel Hsing, Lily Zhag are a product of this system which can attract great coaches from all around the world. 
Of course this means that table tennis will not have a large infrastructure like Germany for example because the idea of spending public money for sports which do not have large economic value does not exist as in other cultures, and that most good junior players focus on high school. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2018 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

  ...

Kanak is NOT a produce of ICC.  He started with Stefan Feth when he was 5 years old and has trained with Stefan at the WCTTA ever since. 

According to http://www.indiacc.org/kanak/ he started at playing at ICC in 2006.  But regardless, he's done exceptionally well for himself and for table tennis in the United States.


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 10/11/2018 at 11:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 12:00am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

  ...

Kanak is NOT a produce of ICC.  He started with Stefan Feth when he was 5 years old and has trained with Stefan at the WCTTA ever since. 

According to http://www.indiacc.org/kanak/ he started at playing at ICC in 2006.  But regardless, he's done exceptionally well for himself and for table tennis in the United States.


ICC does claim Jha as theirs, but it's not true.  He has always been Stefan Feth's student.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 1:11am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

  ...

Kanak is NOT a produce of ICC.  He started with Stefan Feth when he was 5 years old and has trained with Stefan at the WCTTA ever since. 

According to http://www.indiacc.org/kanak/ he started at playing at ICC in 2006.  But regardless, he's done exceptionally well for himself and for table tennis in the United States.


ICC does claim Jha as theirs, but it's not true.  He has always been Stefan Feth's student.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 6:34am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Would be great if someone knowledgeable could distill Kanak's performance against Chinese players. I think some players are more comfortable playing Chinese players than their rating would suggest (local example: Sharon Alguetti from NJ, USA).

To me, it certainly seems that Kanak can play competitively against European junior players that don't rely on power but struggles against players with power (the CNT brass and some European players like Kristian Karlsson or Calderano).

But, it is not a stretch to say that so far, he has exceeded the expectations of most of those who have followed his short career.

Also, I hope he switches to T05 Hard on his FH when he can get his hands on it.


The thing is this :  this is a junior tournament.   He was not going to play Kristian Karlsson or Ma Long.  He was going to play fellow juniors and he is the top ranked junior on the official junior tour.  He is good against junior players and spin players.  Other than people wanting to denigrate the predictive value of the junior ranking and over estimate  the predictive value of the eye test, there is no reason for anyone to argue that his seeding was not proper.  People over and under perform their seedings all the time and getting to the semis should have at least killed the idea that he was an overrated #2.  People want to rate him lower than Pletea because....




Truth is we don't really have enough data to know whether he's better than Pletea. I would suggest it is a coin flip. But from rankings/seedings etc you would expect Jha to be a prohibitive favourite right? The WJTTC will be interesting.

Also it's not just eye test. You can also look at non junior results. Jha has some great wins over top 100 players but so do all these guys.


He's beaten Pletea twice, once last year, once this year.  Since you claim to have no data, why would you seed Jha below someone he has beaten twice?  Since these juniors are also playing junior tournaments, why were they not seeded higher than he was?

This is a JUNIOR tournament.  It might sound funny to you, but even when Harimoto was beating seniors, he was still losing to a few juniors because playing at the junior level has its own competitive nuances.  Kanak is the highest rated junior on the JUNIOR (18 and under) tour.  He may not have a career as great as people you think he should be rated lower than.  But he competed the best as a junior and got the ranking he deserved.  You don't need to fix his ranking because you know he is worse than someone he has beaten twice.

There is nothing wrong with a #2 seed losing early - upsets happen all the time.  But what I don't get is why when a #2 seed reaches the semis, people still have to put him down and say that his seeding was undeserved after he has proven it clearly was.  To make the top 4 and be ranked in the top 2 is very reasonable.



It is, but at the same time you are not acknowledging the benefit of the draw being number 2 seed gave him. He didn't have to play the top 5 Europeans and didn't meet the top 3 Asian until the semi. That wasn't true conversely for anyone else. He played the whole junior circuit. How many of those tournaments did the rest play? How many ITTF events has he played compared to others and also WTTTC to get ranking points? Meanwhile Truls, Pletea etc are like 200 in the world. Wang Chuqin isn't even in the top 100.

Not sure why you are obsessively protective that his seed and rank are somehow correct and it's an insult to say it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. It really isn't. Jha is as good as the top European players, weaker than the top asians. That's it. He is not the number one junior in the world in terms of ability, not even number 2. And that's OK! He's still a top prospect who has a real shot at top 20 in the world in his future.


And how does your analysis equate to ranking him #8 anhd ranking him lower than players he has beaten?

The point of being a higher seed is getting an easier draw.  One of the problems with the old ranking system was that it seeded players well enough to give the top Chinese easy draws almost every time.  But no one complained about this.  Yet one draw that Kanak earned through his performance leads to people doubting him.  And then saying that he is going to choke at the next tournament to prove them right.

And he beat a top 3 Asian.  He beat one of the top Asians that he is weaker than.  Yet rather than accept this, we are looking for excuses.  So what if he is not the top junior in the world in terms of ability?  He is older than most juniors.  But his performance level, all things adjusted for, gave him a top ranking.  And he defended it.  And made a lot of people who kept on arguing he was clearly out of his league look like idiots.  

But we can't accept the errors.  We just keep using the eye test to say Pletea is the better player.  While Pletea is probably still trying to figure out how to beat Kanak.





You're arguing against strawmen here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2018 at 7:35am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

  ...

Kanak is NOT a produce of ICC.  He started with Stefan Feth when he was 5 years old and has trained with Stefan at the WCTTA ever since. 


According to http://www.indiacc.org/kanak/ he started at playing at ICC in 2006.  But regardless, he's done exceptionally well for himself and for table tennis in the United States.



ICC does claim Jha as theirs, but it's not true.  He has always been Stefan Feth's student.

I stand corrected. He got a great start with WCTTA and Stefan Feth. May he go on to even greater heights.
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