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Evidence of manufacturers violating ITTF rules

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    Posted: 11/29/2018 at 11:11pm
ITTF T3 Technical Leaflet

"Material Notwithstanding the instability and flammability of celluloid, it has always been the standard material for a table tennis ball. The Laws do not prescribe the material, leaving manufacturers free to experiment. We need better materials, and manufacturers are still encouraged to search for these and optimize them. The ITTF Equipment Committee will approve balls with a playing performance similar or identical to that of celluloid balls. Therefore, the specifications for non-celluloid balls are as identical as possible to the ones for celluloid, with slight adjustments that proved reasonable to support the task of inventing a new material. Our goal is that balls of any material shall have the same good level of quality and stable properties, which must not change at typical use before, during and after play, except a regular ageing, which should be kept at a minimum. E.g.: Permanent indentations or stress whitening as well as a flimsy or battered appearance must be clearly avoided." 


And yet, the ITTF approved at least 4 different constructions between 2010 and now that have playing performance not similar to celluloid (cellulose acetate, poly seamless, poly seamed, and abs).

Ball manufacturers pay bribes to get balls approved?


That's code for accepting briefcases of cash.


Edited by icontek - 12/06/2018 at 5:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/29/2018 at 11:19pm
Though its not as good as the celluloid ball in terms of spin, speed, and durability, one could argue that the playing characteristics of the current balls are similar. The Nittaku balls aren't so bad. A lot of the seemless ones feel like cheap recreational balls even though they have 3 star logos on them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/29/2018 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Though its not as good as the celluloid ball in terms of spin, speed, and durability, one could argue that the playing characteristics of the current balls are similar. The Nittaku balls aren't so bad. A lot of the seemless ones feel like cheap recreational balls even though they have 3 star logos on them. 

You could argue that, but you'd be wrong. 

Here's why: Let's assume for a minute that Nittaku premium are the gold standard of balls, or the balls that feel the most like celluloid. 

Buy a box of 72 Chinese made *** ABS balls. How many of those 72 play REMOTELY like the Nittaku premiums?

The DIFFERENCE in playing characteristics between any of the four major types of balls is greater than the difference was between between a celluloid 1* training ball and and reputable 3* Celluloid.

In essence, you could buy seamless Chinese training balls, and play in a tournament with nittaku premiums and the trajectories, bounce height and spin of the balls off your paddle and bounce would all be different.



Edited by icontek - 11/30/2018 at 12:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2018 at 9:52am
AN INTERESTING FACT ON DHS BALLS YOU DIDN'T KNOW OF.

All the new plastic balls being now produced by DHS manufactory are now sent to ITTF testing lab for approval. Futhermore. all the newly developed balls supplied directly to China National Team for massive playing tests and complex evaluations.   And the Ball Model that is given Thumb-Up with most china olympians (XuXin, Fzd, etc.) they will be labeled as DHS Olympic ball.   Those special selection balls are marked with a dual logo (Olympic logo + DHS logo) and WILL be used for Olympic events 2020.
The Olympic stock is some 15000 balls, never to come out on open market.

Edited by igorponger - 11/30/2018 at 10:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2018 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

AN INTERESTING FACT ON DHS BALLS YOU DIDN'T KNOW OF.

All the new plastic balls being now produced by DHS manufactory are now sent to ITTF testing lab for approval. Futhermore. all the newly developed balls supplied directly to China National Team for massive playing tests and complex evaluations.   And the Ball Model that is given Thumb-Up with most china olympians (XuXin, Fzd, etc.) they will be labeled as DHS Olympic ball.   Those special selection balls are marked with a dual logo (Olympic logo + DHS logo) and WILL be used for Olympic events 2020.
The Olympic stock is some 15000 balls, never to come out on open market.

so in essence, there are 15000 "good balls" in the world, and the rest of the world will get the factory seconds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2018 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

AN INTERESTING FACT ON DHS BALLS YOU DIDN'T KNOW OF.

All the new plastic balls being now produced by DHS manufactory are now sent to ITTF testing lab for approval. Futhermore. all the newly developed balls supplied directly to China National Team for massive playing tests and complex evaluations.   And the Ball Model that is given Thumb-Up with most china olympians (XuXin, Fzd, etc.) they will be labeled as DHS Olympic ball.   Those special selection balls are marked with a dual logo (Olympic logo + DHS logo) and WILL be used for Olympic events 2020.
The Olympic stock is some 15000 balls, never to come out on open market.


so in essence, there are 15000 "good balls" in the world, and the rest of the world will get the factory seconds?


The balls used in last year worlds play more like 3 star xsf. Nittaku dortmund 2017. Dhs balls used in tournaments are also better not talking about quality just play better like other brands

Edited by mykonos96 - 11/30/2018 at 1:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2018 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Though its not as good as the celluloid ball in terms of spin, speed, and durability, one could argue that the playing characteristics of the current balls are similar. The Nittaku balls aren't so bad. A lot of the seemless ones feel like cheap recreational balls even though they have 3 star logos on them. 

You could argue that, but you'd be wrong. 

Here's why: Let's assume for a minute that Nittaku premium are the gold standard of balls, or the balls that feel the most like celluloid. 

Buy a box of 72 Chinese made *** ABS balls. How many of those 72 play REMOTELY like the Nittaku premiums?

The DIFFERENCE in playing characteristics between any of the four major types of balls is greater than the difference was between between a celluloid 1* training ball and and reputable 3* Celluloid.

In essence, you could buy seamless Chinese training balls, and play in a tournament with nittaku premiums and the trajectories, bounce height and spin of the balls off your paddle and bounce would all be different.


But it could still be argued that the playing characteristics are similar. lol Similar size, similar hardness, similar color. They didn't even define "similar" characteristics. All of what you mentioned can still be argued as similar. 


Edited by ericd937 - 11/30/2018 at 7:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2018 at 8:40pm
Anyone griping about poor plastic balls, then invewsts a small fortune in precious Nittaku 3 star Premium balls, like 3 gross of them, trains all day at club for weeks on end to do a major tourney...

Such a player THINKS he or she is gunna be ready for tourney since they trained in same conditions...

... but floor of venue is different, altitude different, lighting different, noises different, people moving and background different, the tables a NEW, so have WAY MORE FRICTION and ball bounces way different.

We all get used to this stuff on tourney day and get better as tourney goes along...

This is the nature of a tourney, don't sweat Ur training ballz everyone!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/01/2018 at 12:36am
Are you guys seriously arguing that the game plays the same with XuShaoFa seamless and Nittaku Premiums?

Seriously?

If you believe that, you deserve the ITTF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger-man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/01/2018 at 10:55am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Are you guys seriously arguing that the game plays the same with XuShaoFa seamless and Nittaku Premiums?

Seriously?

If you believe that, you deserve the ITTF.

Pretty much sums it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 2:29am
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

But it could still be argued that the playing characteristics are similar. lol Similar size, similar hardness, similar color. They didn't even define "similar" characteristics. All of what you mentioned can still be argued as similar. 

eric937 I don't understand why players like yourself are so quick to defend a standards body and manufacturing combine that have proven unable to produce reliable, consistent, quality despite 6 years of player funding.

I understand why there might be a quality difference between $3 balls and $1 balls. But to have only garbage balls of different playing characteristics available is reprehensible.

How many games with these balls have you felt something was wrong, examined a ball, found premature damage or a blatant manufacturing defect? I want to play, not distrust the ball every time there's an issue. In table tennis, my ability as a consumer to purchase quality balls has disappeared. Regardless of whether I pay a premium price for a ball, I still get a substandard product who's inherent design and production are flawed.

What was once the constant in the sport (you could trust a Nittaku Premium, but Stiga Optimum ***, Double Fish ***, DHS ***, DONIC *** celluloid balls, and quality control ball to ball was much higher) the balls have now become a source of Random Number Generation in the sport, reducing more to the element of chance. 

This is not good.  

In spite of assurances from March of 2017 from Thomas Wiekert that the ITTF was aware of the issues with the plastic balls and was working with the manufacturers to resolve these issues, the batches of balls I have purchased in 2018 have been riddled with defects.

This happens in spite of purchasing ONLY Nittaku Premiums, XuShaoFa Seamless and DHS D40+ from reputable vendors.

Read the comments - this product is unironic:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 3:26am
I agree with you icontek! How some of the earlier balls were approved is mid-boggling, as they were far from similar from the point of view of players. Using a word like 'similar' is far too vague, they should have used more scientific terms.
Problem is, the ITTF does not answer to anyone... well technically they answer to national associations, but when a large country like China get the same number of votes as some of the tiny countries with only a handful of players ...and these tiny countries depend heavily on ITTF sponsorship, so they're not likely to vote against the ITTF, the system is hardly unbiassed, and there are plenty of conflicts of interest.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 4:10am
What do you mean the Joola 40+, the DHS 40+, the BTY G40, the 1st gen seamless... were not similar.

THEY WERE ALL SIMILAR.

How? That all needed to get incinerated with a flamethrower equally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

What do you mean the Joola 40+, the DHS 40+, the BTY G40, the 1st gen seamless... were not similar.

THEY WERE ALL SIMILAR.

How? That all needed to get incinerated with a flamethrower equally.


Fortunately, I have only had people pull out one of these crap balls once or twice in the past couple of years.

Where I play, the market seems to be converging on 2 options:

XSF seamless

NP40/DHS D40+ and its rebranded balls, these play close enough that it takes very minor adjustment to switch. DHS does have it's QC issues, so I would suggest the Gambler P40+ version of the DHS ball. I just got a shipment and the balls have been very good. Less than $1 per ball.

The biggest problem I see are some of the NP40 balls snobs.

I have no problem with NP40 snobs who bring out a fairly new ball.

Last week, I was using a new DHS D40+ when a 1200 player (with a $400 paddle) came to hit with me and wanted to switch to a dirty gray, shiny, NP40 with almost all the lettering worn off. I told the player to throw that ball away and get another.

.......out comes another ratty ass NP40, I was like ..... WTF? I made her get a new ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 10:36pm
Haha triple haha, you just met another NBS... NITTAKU BALL SNOB, a species who insists on playing ONLY Nittaku Premium, even if it is way past its serviceable life.

I carry some serviceable NP40s for my friends with the NBS tendencies, I am with you, the newer ABS are playable enough.

Damn, that Joola 40+ ball a lot of USA tourneys was using a few years played like it had a Mexican Jumping Bean inside it, bounced every which way but loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Haha triple haha, you just met another NBS... NITTAKU BALL SNOB, a species who insists on playing ONLY Nittaku Premium, even if it is way past its serviceable life.

I carry some serviceable NP40s for my friends with the NBS tendencies, I am with you, the newer ABS are playable enough.

Damn, that Joola 40+ ball a lot of USA tourneys was using a few years played like it had a Mexican Jumping Bean inside it, bounced every which way but loose.


The new Joola ABS ball that was at the Teams is a vast improvement. We still had to check for a round one, but they played fine, like a slightly lighter Nittaku.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 11:15pm
Yup. That is the QC drill.

At LA Open 2017, they used the Joola Flash... Joo Se Hyuk and Aruna were going through Box after Box looking for acceptable round ones... ditto at Legal Net Cup in LA with the Flash ball... we were heckling the pros selecting balls to make a public announcement when they found a round one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/02/2018 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Haha triple haha, you just met another NBS... NITTAKU BALL SNOB, a species who insists on playing ONLY Nittaku Premium, even if it is way past its serviceable life.

I carry some serviceable NP40s for my friends with the NBS tendencies, I am with you, the newer ABS are playable enough.

Damn, that Joola 40+ ball a lot of USA tourneys was using a few years played like it had a Mexican Jumping Bean inside it, bounced every which way but loose.

I'm glad we are having this discussion.

Those NBS with old balls produce a ball that is usually round, and hits well, plays fast, and doesn't spin. On service, on pushes, on loops. Once the NP40 has surface wear it is awful and expensive to replace.

And then we have non-Nittaku ABS balls by DHS which frequently have 1-2 heavy spots (put them up to a backlight in a dark room and you will see them). if you are lucky enough the spots are opposite, the ball may play "round". But that's a big what if...

And if not, it will get the wobble in play.

How many balls did they go through to find a ROUND one?

How broken is the manufacturing process if it can't make round balls? Why doesn't the QA remove the non-round balls?

Can we lobby the ITTF to return to celluloid if the manufacturers can't make round balls?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/2018 at 2:06am
Icontek is as relentless as BH-Man when pissed off. :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/2018 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Icontek is as relentless as BH-Man when pissed off. :D

Yup.

I left the sport for nearly 4 years, hoping they would work out the issues after I tried those cellulose-acetate garbage balls. They have improved plastic since 2012, but only marginally in the last few years. 

It's not unreasonable to have reliable, round, regular, defect free 3* balls that aren't Nittaku Premiums. But we are not there.





Edited by icontek - 12/03/2018 at 11:16pm
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I understand a swirl of emotions around this, but IMHO quitting a sport is just a bit of overreaction. So is obsessing with perfect roundness - posters here have bigger problems in their games than that.

I never was forced to play with these horrible cellulose-acetate or whatever things from DHS - XSF/Yinhe seamless balls were already available and were much better.

Everyone hated Butterfly G40+ (and still do, apparently) - never bought them, never played with them in a club either. Other options were there.

Tried NP 40+, not a huge fan: broke too fast for me (bad luck?), gets shiny too fast, also gray. Simply used seamless stuff.

Variants of ABS balls started to show up: D40+, Joola Prime, GEWO Pro - quite decent. Still have no problem with occasional seamless or Nittaku. 

Neither of us is a pro whose income depends on performance, so I don't obsess about this too much. YMMV.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2018 at 7:18am
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

What do you mean the Joola 40+, the DHS 40+, the BTY G40, the 1st gen seamless... were not similar.

THEY WERE ALL SIMILAR.

How? That all needed to get incinerated with a flamethrower equally.


Fortunately, I have only had people pull out one of these crap balls once or twice in the past couple of years.

Where I play, the market seems to be converging on 2 options:

XSF seamless

NP40/DHS D40+ and its rebranded balls, these play close enough that it takes very minor adjustment to switch. DHS does have it's QC issues, so I would suggest the Gambler P40+ version of the DHS ball. I just got a shipment and the balls have been very good. Less than $1 per ball.

The biggest problem I see are some of the NP40 balls snobs.

I have no problem with NP40 snobs who bring out a fairly new ball.

Last week, I was using a new DHS D40+ when a 1200 player (with a $400 paddle) came to hit with me and wanted to switch to a dirty gray, shiny, NP40 with almost all the lettering worn off. I told the player to throw that ball away and get another.

.......out comes another ratty ass NP40, I was like ..... WTF? I made her get a new ball.

Honestly, an old used up NP40 ball is better than a brand new DHS 40+. Those DHS balls are pretty much the worst balls I've ever tried. It feels like a toy, not actual sports equipment. I'd use any other ball over that one. 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2018 at 2:15pm
My post stated I was using DHS D40+, not 40+, huge difference

Worn NP40 balls play like crap. I practice regularly with someone who has a bag of NP40s for drills and multiball. As balls get taken out of play, he adds news ones to the bag.

It's very easy to tell the difference between a lightly used ball and and an old one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2018 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

I understand a swirl of emotions around this, but IMHO quitting a sport is just a bit of overreaction. So is obsessing with perfect roundness - posters here have bigger problems in their games than that.
Sorry I implied that I quit because of the balls. I quit as the balls were being introduced, and it certainly made leaving the sport for a while much easier. Reading reports of the new balls made me think I made a good decision to pursue other interests.

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I never was forced to play with these horrible cellulose-acetate or whatever things from DHS - XSF/Yinhe seamless balls were already available and were much better.
The seamless XSF are the Flat Hitters wet-dream ball. The problem with buying in bulk that our club ran into that was that XSF (and specifically TTNPP.com) couldn't ship even 24 round balls out of a 72 ball order. A ball can't be much better if I have to throw out 66% of them.

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Everyone hated Butterfly G40+ (and still do, apparently) - never bought them, never played with them in a club either. Other options were there.
Those balls are the worst. Apparently, some clubs loved them. Only used them once. They sounded like Halex 2* and played worse. I ignored them in my rants because I've been able to play with others.

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Tried NP 40+, not a huge fan: broke too fast for me (bad luck?), gets shiny too fast, also gray. Simply used seamless stuff.
A new NP40+ is good. An old one, awful. And breakage. Built in obsolescence?

Quote
Variants of ABS balls started to show up: D40+, Joola Prime, GEWO Pro - quite decent. Still have no problem with occasional seamless or Nittaku. 
Only a % of these DHS made balls are a reasonable alternative to new NP40+, the rest have unequally weighted spots that cause ball wobble.


I mention this because there is enough difference between the balls that it can be a determining factor in matchplay.

Here's what I mean:

I have a regular opponent who plays with NP40+'s exclusively. We are of similar level. 
For a time, i purchased DHS D40+ balls and played with them regularly.
Whenever we would play, he would win the matches played with NP40+ and I would win the matches played with D40+ balls. I complained that his Nittaku's weren't spinny and were simply fast and hitter friendly, and he complained that my DHS balls were "wobbly". 

This should not even be a thing. We shouldn't have to argue about this because it shouldn't matter which ball we use. The fact that the differences in the ball can decide games and matches is an actual, real problem.

Perhaps, as our German friend suggests, at a certain level, stroke production and adaptation is such that the differences between the balls become easy to make the adjustment, but I would point out that this is a relatively recent "adjustment" to learn to make in table tennis.

The difference (bounce height, trajectory, sound, spin) between an XSF Seamless and a new Nittaku Premium 40+ is greater than the difference between a Stiga 1* training ball and a Stiga 3* Optimum.

The former ball favors flat hitters and the latter, people who rely on generating spin.
US1260.RC952 . OSP Ultimate II : DHS H2 + Rasant
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2018 at 1:27am
As much as I hated on the G40+, the 2 tourneys I did where they were the ball I did very well.

The ones with an ABS ball I generally did very well.

The ones with Joola 40+ ball were worse than a train wreck. I depend upon a predictable bounce and thin contact to spin, the Joola 40+ (re-stamp of DHS 40+ POS) simply bounced everywhere else but where I thought it would bounce... no Bueno for my kind of impact. A solid, direct striking player can play that ball much better. I refuse to play that style... unless a half million or more is waiting me, then I will drink dirty bath water to get to the other side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darucla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2018 at 8:45am
I do not know why this thread is named as it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2018 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by darucla darucla wrote:

I do not know why this thread is named as it is.

Edited for clarity.
US1260.RC952 . OSP Ultimate II : DHS H2 + Rasant
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2018 at 5:29pm
Game plays different but is still same game. I remember playing in brighton table tennis club around the fist year of plastic introduced into leagues which wasn't too far behind the pro scene. In fact they stipulated a leauge ball which was the XSF seamless.
Now we used to train with Celluloid training ball and play serious matches with XSF seamless. You could easily tell the difference straight away, however if you practiced and looped the celluloid with better spin you could do the same. Same game in the end but different flavour, and for 90% of players I feel its a moot point, for example a player who i could beat with celluloid may beat me now, often it was blockers and hitters because my only good shot my FH loop was easier to return. However it was now easier to play into lobbers and defenders. 
Horses for courses same game but different, now I have entirely ditched hurricane and battle to focus on euro/jap rubbers. Frustrations are well understood about this but 4 years down the line we shouldn't have to but by now should easily have implemented a standardized ball for a local area to stop this rubbish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2018 at 11:17pm
Almost five years. ITTF has still not clamped down to demand more uniformity. Disappointing but not surprising.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/09/2018 at 3:49am
Sounds like material for a Geico radio commercial...

ITTF not enforce its rules... surprising... get 15% off insurance...
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