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Trash call from umpire US open during finals

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by deams59 deams59 wrote:

The toss must be 16 cm after leaving the hand. Nowhere in the rules or umpires training documents have I found anything that says there must be a 16 cm gap between the hand and the ball. When you toss the ball up the hand will naturally rise a bit after the ball leaves the hand. This gives the impression of a lesser distance between the height of the toss and the height of the hand when the ball leaves it.


Thanks for addressing my concern. I'd been wondering that for several posts. Because I have a high toss but I do Follow the Ball a lot with my Palm.
W6 fl with Illumina 1.8

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

I'd say getting umps involved in calling serving errors is important. 
Oftentimes, this is not perfect (yet) but without that... you can probably imagine what would be happening.


Problem is when they call borderline ones but yet obviously illegal serves go years and years and are never called. See Ma Longs backhand serve, probably the most legal serve he's ever done and it's the one that gets called. This just throws doubt on the whole judgement and process.

Edited by FruitLoop - 12/24/2018 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

I'd say getting umps involved in calling serving errors is important. 
Oftentimes, this is not perfect (yet) but without that... you can probably imagine what would be happening.


Problem is when they call borderline ones but yet obviously illegal serves go years and years and are never called. See Ma Longs backhand serve, probably the most legal serve he's ever done and it's the one that gets called. This just throws doubt on the whole judgement and process.
This kind of proves my point: we need a set of rules that are simpler.  The more straightforward the rules, the easier to make the calls and less chance of push back.  I just don't know what those simpler rules would be, unless we want to require all serves to be backhand serves?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 10:05pm
2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards.

Eugene begins his toss with the ball about 6 inches from the center line of the table. He throws the ball backwards and contacts the ball outside the table. 

The toss was not nearly vertical. This is what the umpire indicates after the fault.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by alphapong alphapong wrote:

2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards.

Eugene begins his toss with the ball about 6 inches from the center line of the table. He throws the ball backwards and contacts the ball outside the table. 

The toss was not nearly vertical. This is what the umpire indicates after the fault.
These are good screen shots, but you should have included one of the umpire immediately after. I checked and his hand signal is the one used for non-vertical toss.  So it really isn't about high enough toss, it's about too much horizontal distance.

It looks to me like most of his tosses had that problem, so the umpire must have decided that enough is enough and chose a particularly vagrant violation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 10:20pm
It's hard to do screen caps for the hand signal. Easier to watch. it's at 10:36.




Edited by alphapong - 12/25/2018 at 10:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buffalowings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2018 at 1:40am
as an international umpire myself, I honestly believe it was a good call based on the very fact that the ball leaves the palm very late and having the toss lower than 16cm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2018 at 2:20am
Originally posted by alphapong alphapong wrote:

2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards.

Eugene begins his toss with the ball about 6 inches from the center line of the table. He throws the ball backwards and contacts the ball outside the table. 

The toss was not nearly vertical. This is what the umpire indicates after the fault.







There is another problem with this serve. 
It seems the contact is made outside the limits of the base line (a bit to the left side). It´s not allowed.
Other than that I would say a good call by the referee: low toss and ball not released in the palm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2018 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

There is another problem with this serve. 
It seems the contact is made outside the limits of the base line (a bit to the left side). It´s not allowed....

2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line.

The serve does not need to take place between the sides of the table. The only rule regarding positioning is 2.06.04.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2018 at 12:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2019 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by deams59 deams59 wrote:

The toss must be 16 cm after leaving the hand. Nowhere in the rules or umpires training documents have I found anything that says there must be a 16 cm gap between the hand and the ball. When you toss the ball up the hand will naturally rise a bit after the ball leaves the hand. This gives the impression of a lesser distance between the height of the toss and the height of the hand when the ball leaves it.


Thanks for addressing my concern. I'd been wondering that for several posts. Because I have a high toss but I do Follow the Ball a lot with my Palm.


This is an issue that has been debated here before. I have posed that question to two international umpires of a very high level. One of them had some doubts in the beginning but after my clarifications they both have told me that the rule means exactly what it says - there is absolutely NO fault in following the ball with your hand and having small gap between your palm and the ball. As long as the ball flies high enough from the point of ORIGINAL release the serve is legal.

However, the umpires are not robots - it is pretty darn complicated to quickly determine the point of release, then track the ball to its highest point and then "compute" the distance. It is much easier - and visually quite simple - to estimate the gap between the ball and the hand. And that is what the umpires do - they really simply cannot do what the formal rule requires of them.

Thus my advice to the players who a) have the habit of following the ball with your hand; b) play at high-level tournaments : you should think about making a small change to your serving technique. You are formally correct but the umpires will continue to think that your serve looks illegal. It's your choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2019 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

I'd say getting umps involved in calling serving errors is important. 
Oftentimes, this is not perfect (yet) but without that... you can probably imagine what would be happening.


Problem is when they call borderline ones but yet obviously illegal serves go years and years and are never called. See Ma Longs backhand serve, probably the most legal serve he's ever done and it's the one that gets called. This just throws doubt on the whole judgement and process.

Correct, umpires generally function based on "looks" or "form".  When Ma Long or other players do the FH pendulum serve, that form looks correct.  Soon has he switches to BH serve, it's a look the umpire is not familiar with.  Same with Ding Ning's pendulum/sideswipe serve or Kenta and Dima's tomahawk.  That's why it's always important to show all your serves to the umpire at the beginning of the match so it gets programmed in their brain.

I did not really review this particular serve from Eugene but he is notorious for the arm lift with low ball toss especially on his reverse pendulum.

And I will say it again, having tried it numerous times, being a TT umpire is an easy job.  Other than the services and edge/side calls, there really is nothing controversial.  And the edge/side calls, the players more often that not settle it themselves.  There is no running looking for fouls, travel, and double dribble calls like basketball.  The rest like net height and racket control are really compliance measures.  So what is an umpire to do if they want to feel relevant? Call service faults, because really, that is the only thing.

But I will admit, TT serves really have a lot of elements to be legal:
1.  Presentation - palm open enough, above table, behind end line.
2.  Toss to moment before racket contact - start from stationary (hi Ding Ning), no dip below the table, toss high enough, toss vertical enough, free arm dropped out of the way quickly enough, if the umpire is strict head and shoulders out of the way the whole time (see Patrick Baum).
3.  Racket contact - not above table (hello CWX!), behind end line, not hidden.
I'm sure I missed some things but it's no wonder TT umpires basically accept illegal serves or swing the other way and call every little thing they can find or justify.

So as I have presented before, let's stop nerding out over these service rules.  Have a service line let's say 3 feet (this I am not set in stone) behind the end line.  You can only cross after ball contact with the racket.  If not, you get a foot fault (yes, like lawn tennis!).  Other than finger spin and palm spinning against the racket, do whatever you want.  Hide the ball, low toss like Eugene, do the Ding Ning tomahawk gyration, dip the ball below the table, do whatever.  The three feet will nullify any "dirty" advantage you are trying to do.  Some may say:

1.  This is TT, server should still have an advantage - wrong! The days of Waldner and LGL serving and 3rd ball attacking are gone especially with the plastic ball.
2.  Sounds good for ITTF tours but what about in the community center I play in - no problem.  For casual play, take one step back.  If your clubmates are neurotic, put blue carpenters tape on the floor.  No mess, easy to remove.
3.  I can't take another change - well, you bent over back in 2002 when the ITTF said no hidden serves, 11 point games, and 40mm cel.  You bent over in 2008 when they banned speed glue.  You complained in 2014 when they said plastic ball only but you now play with plastic only.  The only thing constant in TT appears to be it will change.  So, why not change it for something we can actually enjoy.

But, part of me thinks that the ITTF wants to create sort of a lawn tennis McEnroe and Jimmy Connors vibe with the TT serves, because again, that is really the only call for umpires to make.  I feel this is really not going where they want because TT players tend to be more passive and silent neurotic.  And with the language barrier of the top players i.e. CNT, any kind of "you cannot be serious!" yelled at the umpire won't have good TV presentation.  I did like it when Wally Green exploded during an illegal serve call.  I think the ITTF would love for FZD to do something like that.  




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2019 at 5:25pm
Thank you for the enjoyable read. I just jumped on that train. Anything able to nullify the serve cheateries will make the sport more enjoyable and more attractive on TV, longer rallies will regale us, more people will join the sport for good. As a newbie watching TT on TV, I might not join if I see half the points featuring short game subtleties followed by a failed attack or block.
3 feet behind the table with painter's tape to help sounds good to me: I like above all the ratio [positive side effects]/[invested resources], the simplicity and elegance of a solution the whole world will understand right away!
Some clubs should try it in non sanctioned tournaments, there's money there: all those bad receivers will happily march in whistling "Yankee Doodle Dandy".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2019 at 7:47pm
Somewhere there was youtube video of a "long serve" TT tournament from an UK club that was done just as you describe. It was in a thread here on MYTT I think.

Mark
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