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Rating Estimation: Vet Penholder vs Junior Looper

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Slowhand, 2100-2400 USATT players on East Coast are gunna have a small disagreement with that statement... they usually do [make that many unforced errors] during/after they play R. Dewitt.

Well okay, BH-Man, you have a point. But many unforced errors against R. Dewitt's deadball sleight of hand only appear to be unforced. Same for Kanoya against Eugene Wang who changes speed and spin well enough to get a 2800 player swatting backhands 4 feet off the table.

As far as this video rating estimation goes, it's fun but I'm not good at it and it wouldn't surprise me if I'm off by a few hundred points. As long as I'm within 200 I'll claim success and say I told you so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

 Benb, your mysterious Chinese coach still plays tournaments as he was up here playing and I remember him with a partner on the other side of the table from John and I at a PPC tournament! Lol

Well, he doesn't practice or train ever.  In fact, he told me he's trying to learn to play smarter because he doesn't have the physical fitness level and freshness of training that he should have.

As for the doubles -- he was saddled with a low-level hack.  Actually, I've concluded that it's very hard on the higher rated partner when you have a much weaker partner.  They always feel the need to kill the ball before their weak partner even touches the ball.  This, of course, is not a good strategy for winning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

 
The guys in the first video are top 100 in England (78th and 50th atm). They are both probably on a par with, or even stronger than, the top cadets nationally. So comparing to the top cadets in the US, where I am making the assumption that top USA Vs top English cadets is close and these guys are around 2400 probably.
So the first match was Daniel versus Martin, but I don't know which is which.  The one is red has an unusual style: his loops are full arm swings, but he throws the arms more like swinging a whip.  Traditional Asian (Chinese or Korean) full arm loops are more precise than that.  And red shirt also stood very upright, and his blocks were very passive.  I mean, ultimately he won the match and he made some great shots along the way, but I could never imagine someone being coached to play like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 12:02am
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Slowhand, 2100-2400 USATT players on East Coast are gunna have a small disagreement with that statement... they usually do [make that many unforced errors] during/after they play R. Dewitt.

Well okay, BH-Man, you have a point. But many unforced errors against R. Dewitt's deadball sleight of hand only appear to be unforced. Same for Kanoya against Eugene Wang who changes speed and spin well enough to get a 2800 player swatting backhands 4 feet off the table.

As far as this video rating estimation goes, it's fun but I'm not good at it and it wouldn't surprise me if I'm off by a few hundred points. As long as I'm within 200 I'll claim success and say I told you so.
 

You are prolly not too far off, and FYI, I have jammed my foot deep in my mouth on the forums more that you have. I am not afraid to speak my mind, and sometimes I (or others) found BH-Man was wrong. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 1:08am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. https://youtu.be/OjLIJoTkfZc

I think if posted anonymously the guesses would be 1600 or so.

I guess that's the match that bumped Pushblocker into lower division in Super Giant RR at the US Open!

His opponent was remarkably not bothered that much by LP returns (from a few early minutes that I watched)... 
His bh really made the killing here. Very very interesting, since the introduction of 40+ ball, I found that the bh rally really troublesome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 11:17am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

I'll bet guy in black is 2300 penholder 2100.

These threads always underestimate. No 2100 player looks good playing a 2300 player.


I bet we have absolutely no way of knowing, unless players in video have established rating in their country and there is a way to translate it into USATT somehow. This is yet to happen in most of these threads (videos of Rich Dewitt are the only exception, I think).

I actually chuckle every time someone without any first hand exposure to USATT players, somehow gives a very accurate estimate of '2050'. 

Agree with the overall sentiment otherwise.
   You are right it's subjective until the point at which we have a data point with which to compare. I have seen many players suggested as 1600 who were regional champions or such.

I would be interested in conducting somewhat of a thread hijack here with two examples I have chosen:

Example 1:


Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. 


Fixed YT links.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 2:58pm
Here is another video of the red shirt vet.

 


Edited by ChichoFicho - 12/25/2018 at 2:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Here is another video of the red shirt vet.

That's a disturbing video.  Pen holder is just so lackadaisical.  Every time I watch him I get the feeling he'd rather be doing anything than be there.  And the guy he played in his video just kept making obvious tactical mistakes.  It's like he was determined to do what he wanted to do without thinking through the consequences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Here is another video of the red shirt vet.

 
Low level from both players. Some juniors in my club would destroy any of them without problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Here is another video of the red shirt vet.

 
Low level from both players. Some juniors in my club would destroy any of them without problems.

I am pretty sure no junior under 2100 would "destroy" any of them without problems. The penholder has played at the European Vets and has wins against very strong opponents. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Here is another video of the red shirt vet.


Low level from both players. Some juniors in my club would destroy any of them without problems.
I'm always careful about saying something like that.  Just look at the comments regarding Dewitt or Pushblocker when people first see their videos.  

I was thinking about this whole game of guessing the rating.  I can't guess ratings well but I can make some generalizations about viewing any video to judge playing level:

1) You can mostly judge the quality of a player's technique, such as their loops or pushes.  However, there are a ton of players who are very good right up to 2300 with awful looking technique.

2) You can judge the quality of a player's serves, especially checking whether they're long or short.  This gives a better indication because better players always improve with their serves, but videos can't always give you a good sense of how deceptive a serve is.

3) You can judge the intensity of a player.  How well do they move around? How focused are they during the points?  Do they get ready for each point?  This is where I lowered my estimate of the penhold player.

4) You can judge the tactics of the player.  This is where the player against the penhold player in the last video looked bad.  People should be able to anticipate consequences for their shot selection and should adjust their strategies accordingly.  Surprisingly, you can find videos of 2500 level players with superb technique and then in their matches you go "what on earth was that guy thinking?"

Those evaluations don't really tell you a players rating, because some people have intangibles that make them either more or less successful in tournament play.  

By the way, I never video myself.  If I did, it would cause me to immediately give up playing altogether.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2018 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Here is another video of the red shirt vet.

 
Low level from both players. Some juniors in my club would destroy any of them without problems.

I am pretty sure no junior under 2100 would "destroy" any of them without problems. The penholder has played at the European Vets and has wins against very strong opponents. 

When I said "some juniors" I meant the best ones in my club. 
The best one has just won the region Best 8 Tournament and I´m pretty sure he is between 2400-2500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2018 at 9:55am
I think Chris is like 27 or 28 always been a big lad wouldn't say over the hill but not the normal statue for a very high level player. I think he has some videos on youtube of him playing in the super leagues.

Having played against him on more than one occasion I can say that Chris is class and also very clever in his play. Really good hands and control. Also if I'm right Chris is still the overall UK grand Prix champion last year.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2018 at 5:08pm
The trouble with thread hijacking is it gets a bit hard to know who and what is being commented on
maybe better to start new one's yourselves
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2018 at 7:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2018 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. https://youtu.be/OjLIJoTkfZc

I think if posted anonymously the guesses would be 1600 or so.


I guess that's the match that bumped Pushblocker into lower division in Super Giant RR at the US Open!

His opponent was remarkably not bothered that much by LP returns (from a few early minutes that I watched)... 

His bh really made the killing here. Very very interesting, since the introduction of 40+ ball, I found that the bh rally really troublesome.

Joey played very well.. My control is very low against low spin.. My pushblocking depends on my opponents spin and he didn't give me any. Great strategy and execution. Medium pips hitter is not a good matchup for me.. got a bad draw against a style that gives me a hard time. had my worst loss ever to a similar style.. Tadao Inui, a 1800 penhold pushblocker..
Playing no spin is not something that most players can execute as well as Joey did.. Great play and great coaching by Brian. Joey hardly ever pushed. He went forward on both, backhand and forehand with little to no spin.

Edited by Pushblocker - 12/28/2018 at 4:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger-man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2018 at 10:46am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

The trouble with thread hijacking is it gets a bit hard to know who and what is being commented on
maybe better to start new one's yourselves
 


This...
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