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3 Tips for Bachhand Topspin against Backspin |
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NextLevel
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"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot". This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through. The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/13/2019 at 12:58pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.
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Tinykin
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Most TTplayer-physicists, physicists, engineers, biologists, artists, painters etc would understand the advice in the message. |
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NextLevel
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Yes, this is true. What I really mean is that you need to play table tennis at a high enough level to appreciate the kind of models you properly need to explain the important variables. Saying that pressing down after contact is useless is the kind of thing that a physicist would say if they don't play at a high enough level to realize that pressing down after contact affects how the stroke is prepared before contact and what happens at contact. It is just simpler to say the swing is a path. But I am more interested in helping people become better players than being extremely precise about the physics.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
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Savage
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FruitLoop
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No physicist would claim that what happens before and after contact does not affect what happens to the ball. Those are the equivalent of flat earthers not physicists. The bat does not teleport into contact then immediately out of contact.
Edited by FruitLoop - 02/13/2019 at 6:08am |
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NextLevel
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I have little/no problem with what you have written, blahness. Most people learn their strokes by watching others and copying them so I don't think telling people to keep the same angle is what people usually do (they don't).
My concern is when someone says something trivially true without explain what they think its practical implications for how you should play TT are. CComparing the after motions of a serve or a wiggly to the follow contact and follow through of a fast spinny loop is ludicrous. Of course all that matter is what happened at the ball. But as you have pointed out and which is my main point, elements of the stroke need preparation and completion to create their effect at the ball and a naive focus on just what happens at the ball will make it harder to learn the stroke. The simplest way I explain it to people is that a full stroke is a path. Taking the racket through that path has an effect. Don't let an obsession with what happens at contact blind you to the fact that what happens before and after plays a huge role so you likely need a full stroke to learn the proper path.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
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I would like to point out that good use of pronation/supination was a dirty secret in the badminton and tennis pro circles and wasn't taught in mainstream coaching, it was very much later that it was acknowledged that it was one of the primary sources of power for pros.
It's actually the same for table tennis, with many coaches telling you to close the bat angle after contact but neglect to explain the actual physical mechanisms behind that ie pronation/supination. Test it out, you can't physically close the bat angle without pronation or supinating your arm. So some scientifically minded observe correctly that the followthrough should not affect the ball, however the truth is that the followthrough is evidence of what happened during contact because the need to decelerate after contact. For e.g. if you never close your bat angle after hitting the ball, you never pronated/supinated. By timing the pronation or supination well you likely have increased the tangential component of force going into the ball which generated more topspin which helped to "bring the ball down". However if you actively rely on it you have to be sure you have amazing timing otherwise it will result in many mishits, which is why coaches usually ask students to keep it simple ie use the same bat angle.
Edited by blahness - 02/13/2019 at 3:34am |
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blahness
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My view is that the ball only feels an effective force broken into normal and tangential components, however in terms of biomechanics when we are combining and coordinating our movements to achieve the highest contact force and speed, it's extremely hard to dissect the sources of force applied if we just look at the contact alone. However because various parts along the biomechanical chain of power accelerate and decelerate at different times to achieve the whip effect, by looking at the backswing and followthrough we are able to know which links in the chain are present or missing. If we change our backswing or followthrough we are essentially tweaking the biomechanical chain to achieve what we want to do for e.g. if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball. If you change to a thinner contact you increase the tangential component and thus increasing spin. If you think of doing follow through to the right for BH you activate waist rotation, but if you do it too much then your applied force goes too much to the side rather than forward which causes a loss in power, so there has to be a balance. If you don't accelerate sequentially then you lose the whip effect, thus reducing your power.
Edited by blahness - 02/13/2019 at 3:02am |
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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This makes sense to me. Your internal idea of your stroke -- what it looks like, what kind of contact is being made, why it does what it does to the ball, etc. -- is connected to what you actually do. Even if your idea and what you actually do aren't the same thing. If it works it works. But I think there's also a real advantage to knowing what's actually happening, especially when it comes to improving shot mechanics.
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Slowhand
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Your AB line segment is real but short. Contact time between ball and rubber is only a few milliseconds, not enough time for the ball to travel on the rubber more than a small fraction of its own diameter. Even so it's meaningful, not because the ball moves on the rubber but because the forces applied to the ball change depending on the relative positions of A and B, which in turn depend on the swing trajectory during the few milliseconds of contact. The early part of follow through -- immediately after contact -- depends on swing trajectory during contact because you can't change trajectory instantaneously. But eventually you can change it, often fast enough to be deceptive, and so the rest of the follow through doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the ball is doing. Deception may be the most typical reason to modify a natural follow through, but there's also faster recovery, less stress on shoulder or elbow, etc.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Good physics.
This is mostly good table tennis. Think of the way you swing your racket as a path. The follow through of a fast swing is part of the path. There is a speed of the swing and there is a direction. There is a contact point on the ball. What the stupid table tennis physicists want you to believe is that how you swing at the ball to end at a certain point doesn't produce a unique contact point and turning effect on the ball. They want you to believe that there are other ways of creating the same speed and turning effect just by focusing on what happens at the ball, and not what happens before and after. I am sorry, this is sheer stupidity. It also cannot help anyone build a good table tennis stroke. I know because when I first heard it, I thought it was smart. And I tried to shorten my stroke to take advantage. And I learned pretty quickly why the Chinese phrase for loop is something that means "pull past" or so I hear. The follow through affects the swing speed and plane and therefore affects how the ball is contacted. Immediately I grabbed this concept of swing path, my table tennis became better. I started looking for swing paths to handle various spins etc. I started to understand what my swing path meant in terms of the effect on the ball. In reality, most people just copy good players. I unfortunately started at an older age and like to give language to my actions so I had to come to my own conclusions. And I have never found a really good player who doesn't think how they finish the stroke affects what happens to the ball. The people who parrot the "all that matters is the contact" are usually the table tennis engineers/physicists, who are usually never more than USATT 1500.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Exactly. Which is why I said good physics, bad table tennis. What happens before and after both affect how the ball is contacted. It affects how the racket is moving (speed and direction) at the point of contact. I remember when someone said it didn't, I tried to build my table tennis around the idea. But as I got better, I realized how stupid it was as a naive statement. IT's one thing to swing, and then do all kinds of nonsense after like people do on serves where they serve then do all kinds of rubbish AFTER the serve is completed (which is not the follow through). But the racket trajectory and speed is determined by a lot of things including the size of the follow through, and the trajectory and speed are practically unique for a particular way of approaching the ball. Of course, in theory, all that matter is what happens at the ball. But can you gain speed and decelerate and get the same racket trajectory that creates a specific type of spin and speed vector with a different swing? Yes if you think it is a physics problem, like many low level TT players do. But not if you try it and realize that the quality of the follow through in some ways affects the quality of the swing.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/12/2019 at 9:38pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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the way I think about it is a mix of both of your conceptions. No, the follow through itself doesn't directly effect the spin on the ball. But yes it does effect the spin on the ball. What does that mean?
The thing that effects the ball is the stuff that happens on contact. For example the arm speed that you generate leading up to the contact. Example: let's say you didn't accelerate before the contact and after the contact you accelerate. That won't change the speed of the ball, cause it happens afterwards. But the things that happen after the contact effect the ball, just not on a physical level. Hard to word it for me. It is more the physiological aspect of it that in the end effects the things that happen before and on contact. What does that mean? Example: of course pressing down after the backhand topspin won't bring the ball down on the table. I can't hit the ball and then drag my arm to the left to magically change the direction of the ball. But the important question is "what does this pressing down concept do to my way of acting?" If I think about pressing down afterwards, I'll subconsciously do the stroke differently ( different acceleration, racket angle/position on contact) Edited by Tt Gold - 02/12/2019 at 6:02pm |
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Slowhand
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I wasn't aware of giving any advice but if I do I think I'll put it on a website called Stupid Table Tennis. In the meantime, I'm sure you can find videos on deceptive serves, snakes, etc., to see how follow through doesn't effect spin.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Maybe you should give us a video tutorial on how to apply your advice. Like I said, the physics is sound but is very misguided for practical TT. You can show me in your tutorial how you stroke and get a certain effect at impact but follow through very differently on both strokes. it is just nphysically possible for the rapid continuous motions that are spin strokes. In other words, your statement is good physics and stupid table tennis.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand
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Ball contact is the only part of the swing trajectory that counts for what the ball does. A downward follow through after the ball is headed back in the other direction has no effect on the spin or flight path of the ball. Of course follow through counts for recovery, and every part of the swing trajectory is connected to every other part, and everything including what you had for breakfast the morning of the tournament counts for how much power you generate. If you're talking about how best to conceptualize hitting the ball then I agree that it's not helpful to think only about the moment of contact. In that sense it might be useful to think metaphorically about "turning" the ball with a particular follow through even though your follow through is doing no such thing.
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NextLevel
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No, contact with the ball.is not the only part of the swing that counts. This is one of the most dangerous things table tennis engineers say and while it seems self evident and true, it can send someone's technique in the wrong direction. A swing has a trajectory and the trajectory is not just hat happens at contact but what happens before during and after contact. The whole trajectory has an effect on the ball produced. Swinging to press down has a different effect from swinging to open up because the racket path turns the ball in a different way. in all TT strokes, not just backhand, there are different approaches to spin generation based oncontact point and follow through. Some people like to brush from the start and while some people like to hit into the ball with more solid contact and turn the ball to finish their stroke. And many players use both methods. I don't think it is worth making them to kinds of backhands. It is simply a different approach to the ball. And in the plastic ball era, the solid contact approach is becoming more dominant because it allows you to hit into the ball more solidly. But I think everyone just does what they think is right at the appropriate moment given the incoming ball, the actual swings for both approaches look very similar to me but the mental approach and output is not.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand
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When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.
I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.
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NextLevel
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The kill shot for that stroke is to hit the left side of the ball and turn the wrist/forearm over. IT's something you can experiment with but I wouldn't call it someone's regular backhand.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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It's not new - and the way I have always understood is a swing trajectory adjustment to trap topspin. I don't understand it so much as punching down but spinning over the ball forward to bring the ball down.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/12/2019 at 9:04am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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zeio
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Good to know that someone notices it. It's not exactly new. As far as I could track, WH started transitioning to this biomechanics from the mid to late 2000.
Li Xiaodong talks extensively on this concept in one of his tutorials from 2014. Starting from 5:46, he goes over the swing trajectory and how many grass-root coaches teach it wrong. At 7:13, he mentions that at the highest level, the swing direction could go toward your bottom right(for a right-hander) when returning a loop, like the one from WH above. Edited by zeio - 02/12/2019 at 5:00am |
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Tt Gold
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blahness
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I think Fan Zhendong has a very different stroke compared to the rest of the pros...he pronates/supinates his arms actively rather than it being an afterthought inclusion, that along with extremely good biomechanics on the lower body makes him both extremely speedy and powerful. It's also the exact same movement responsible for much of the power in badminton and tennis. I think the pronation/supination makes the stroke less stable due to having to time precise racket angle changes. The mechanism is especially clear when he has to hit in a cramped position.
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NextLevel
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What I am saying is that both players are trying to get a quality ball. When they were younger, someone taught them to play a backhand and they did something and got a quality ball. Then another coach got them and tried to make it better and asked for this instead of that. And they did what they thought the coach said and changed it. And so on. You are seeing the end product now and talking about it as if the player is choosing to play that way, but that is not how technique is developed .No one said 'use the elbow like this and the wrist like this and let the wrist finish here and the elbow go there etc." When people talk about technique like that, as long as they are not saying that this is how the technique was taught, it is okay. What the coaches were trying to do was to teach and get a quality ball. If you look at Ma Long, he modifies his grip seriously yo play backhand. So does Timo and Dima. No one said "well you must do your thumb like this and your wrist like this". It is experimentation to get a quality ball.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tt Gold
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Tt Gold
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I don't think I'm complicating the backhand. If anything I'm just giving my thoughts about different techniques of backhands and making them more clear, by dividing them into just two categories. If you look at the videos I mentioned, you'll definitely see the difference. Even just watching the elbow and forearm at the end of the movement clearly shows that the power is applied differently.
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NextLevel
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Ttgold has a solid backhand.
Yes there are distinctions in backhand technique but everyone is just trying to do the same thing - get a higher quality ball. The actual technique you end up with is often an accident of evolution.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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When I was looping backspin at USATY 1700, one of my coaches who has never been to Korea, said that there as a difference between the upward lifting motion and the forward drive motion and encouraged me to enf the upward circular portion of my stroke when I made contact with the balland to finish more forward.. All he is asking the TTR hunter to do is to add more forward motion into the contact once the backspin has been handled. He is looking for a different quality of ball. When a coach is trying to get more out of your technique, that is what a coach does. Making it sound like a new backhand is just going to confuse people.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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nicholasy
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Cool!
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