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Beautiful BH technique |
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mickd
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Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 984 |
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This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more. edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!
Edited by fatt - 03/18/2019 at 1:27am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I wouldn't use the word "jerk" imo...it could be a pretty dangerous word in biomechanics! The squatting and unbowing shouldn't be seen as separate movements imo but as a whole, similar to what you do in a deadlift.
Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 1:42am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Extremely speculative, I think the real change in the CNT attitude towards trunk rotation happened after ZJKs injuries which forced them to reevaluate their techniques. Ma Long abandoned waist rotation in his BH movement around the same time too...
Mickd's video was quite interesting too, there's a lot of earlier clips of Ma Long, you can see how early days Ma Long had quite a bit of waist rotation on both FH and BH.... The Rotterdam WTTC 2011 training videos were the most obvious... Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 4:54am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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It is not easy to.descrive to be honest. The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer. However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Why bend at the waist when you can bend at the hips?
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I understand your point, I'm just trying to point out that for the bowing/unbowing action it is better to bend/unbend at the hips rather than at the waist for similar reasons (avoid bending at the lower back). Apologies if the message wasn't as clear as intended. It's like smoking, we all know longterm smoking is dangerous for health, but just a few smokes? The risk might be much smaller, or it could be proportional. But the question is why take the risk when you can avoid it completely?
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Edit: double post deleted
Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 10:26pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I think I understand how Harimoto is doing it. You can have a clockwise hip rotation with your left leg in front of your right, but it is not the same way as that of the FH, it's a different mechanism. Basically to feel it try this with your left leg in front of your right, your right leg starts off bent and left leg straight. If you rotate your hips clockwise your right leg will end up straight and left leg ends up bent. It won't give you a 90 deg rotation like that on the FH side, but it's something which is better than nothing (about 45 degrees only). In a sense, you still push off your right leg more than your left leg in the BH if you use this method of hip rotation!
Edited by blahness - 03/19/2019 at 7:35am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I gotta say Harimoto is a genius.... With this he never needs to transition between "BH feet" and "FH feet", no need for compromises that a square position brings. He can do hip rotation on both wings easily so the power is not lost. Also he always pushes off his right foot so there's no confusion about which way to place his weight on more. No wonder he is so insanely fast!
Also because his right foot is behind the left foot, pushing from the right foot on the BH will always result in a more forward force, leading to a higher quality BH.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I have been trying the Harimoto style weight transfer in the BH pushing off the back foot lately and like what you said it's actually possible to rotate the hip both ways (anticlockwise will be exactly like throwing a straight punch with the same hip rotation direction as the FH which is amazing for the BH down the line shot, clockwise is better for diagonal shots and requires the straightening of the back foot to achieve the anticlockwise hip rotation). But actually I feel the anticlockwise rotation is in fact more powerful and with some modifications you can do it with the diagonal shot (haven't actually figured how to do that for diagonal shots smoothly!) This method is definitely much faster than the old "frisbee throwing" BH as it is a straight line not a circular movement. But the major problem I had is the feeling of spinning the ball, sometimes I would generate very spinny shots and sometimes downright no spin resulting in a loss of consistency. I think the issue is that I have to modify this "punch" movement slightly to increase the spin potential by dropping the wrist during the backswing and supinating strongly through the shot.
Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 7:19am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Double post deleted
Edited by blahness - 03/27/2019 at 6:04pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Have tried it the Harimoto style BH a bit more, I understand how he is using an anticlockwise rotation for all his BH shots now, it's the same as the Bruce Lee video, he's using his calves extremely well, he's lifting his right heel every single time he hits a BH. With the normal "unsquatting" you get a force that is directed upwards (useful for lifting underspin), however with the lifting of the right heel you convert this force into a formidable forward force (with the effort from the calves added for good measure!). By lifting the heel you also move the right knee forward and thus it becomes an anticlockwise hip rotation).
I've did some shadow practice of this BH and am liking it a lot, this seems even superior to the clockwise hip rotation that I've been shadowing previously, especially when you can feel the direct connection from the toe to the paddle. The really weird thing is that the paddle is rotating clockwise (like a normal BH), while the hips are rotating anticlockwise, but it actually makes sense because all the rotation is simply geared towards achieving a maximum forward force. Also the same applies for his FH, by engaging the calves you get more forward power in the shot. With this philosophy the weight transfer and hip rotation direction is exactly the same for both BH and FH... I can't even describe how weird this is, it goes completely against what I've learnt lol.... Edit: I might record a video if people are interested
Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 7:59am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Edit: The heel lift is actually really powerful on both wings! Just did more shadowing, it really adds a lot of power to the stroke with ease haha
Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 8:35am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Def show some video.
IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. Edited by V-Griper - 03/31/2019 at 11:50am |
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques unlike most TT players who just accepted conventional wisdom...maybe he relies too much on his technical prowess rather than tactics unlike ML, but he is extremely forward thinking in his strokes. Name me another player who: 1) Uses thoracic rotation exclusively instead of waist rotation 2) Uses the heel lift all the time on both wings 3) On the BH, loads up the right foot and does a counterclockwise hip rotation (exactly the same as the FH mechanism). This allows him to have no hesitation between strokes, no transition of leg position required between BH and FH, and also with no compromise of power at all compared to traditional techniques. People think he is naturally fast but I believe it has everything to do with his superior technique. Once he grows some serious muscles he will be hitting it both faster but also more powerful with much shorter recovery time compared to other players on the tour. Destroying Liang Jingkun 4-0 and Lin Gaoyuan 4-0 is just the beginning... |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though. For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!! |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I definitely never seen this video before, but his understanding of the BH mechanism philosophy is exactly the same as mine now... the part about the supination was extremely clear and critical too. Btw he's also using the anticlockwise hip rotation (similar to a punch), but is missing Harimoto's loading up the backfoot and the heel lift which adds considerable amount of power in the stroke. He's also correctly focusing on the forward movement (look at the stroke trajectory). Edit: He reverts to the clockwise hip rotation during some segments which directly contradicts his mechanism for the BH counter lol...ideally you should stick with one!!
Edited by blahness - 04/02/2019 at 5:51am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Long time no see. I like your thought process. Usually I like to ask adult players what they try to do with their swings. Usually I learn the most that way. Because to some degree they consciously tried to do something before it started working. Kids just copied the good players around them and got better.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
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"He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques"
How old was he when he made this connection with martial arts. So he had great insight in both TT and martial arts at that age? Why waste it on Table Tennis - should be the next Bruce Lee instead
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Ieyasu
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He has a nice collection of videos. I wish I could understand what he says.
Edited by Ieyasu - 04/02/2019 at 4:53pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I would say either him or his parents are TT biomechanics geniuses haha... Btw it is not so easy to be the next Bruce Lee too lol
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Need someone to translate this video. Is this a looping or blocking video?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpungpeng
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this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this. if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out. others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn.... they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule. also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level.... so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this. one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?
Edited by pingpungpeng - 04/02/2019 at 7:02pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Do you play in a gangsta club?
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mickd
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I think most the people I play with already hit the ball like that, just without the body working together as well as it should. I also feel like you could slow down the ball depending on the opponent, but still using most, if not all those mechanics. It would definitely depend on your club and your hitting partner.
I think even amateurs should work towards a backhand like that. The most important thing would be for amateurs to know that if they lack the consistency, especially if going for too much explosive power, and their hitting partner can't control the ball, that they'll need to slow it down.
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