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SignatureDish81 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05/31/2019 at 11:49am
They have the right to use that discretion. It’s not just their right to assign an estimated rating, it is advised to always make a conscientious effort to assign an estimated rating to unrated players.


Chapter 6 of Handbook:

14. New Players

14.b. The tournament director should make a conscientious effort to estimate a player's rating. A league rating based on the USATT rating system may be used; an estimate by an experienced coach; or a comparison of wins and losses against rated players.

It’s a practice that may disturb rated players and could lead to disgruntled players semi-detailing a thread as they vent frustrations on internet forums. Let the estimated players play, but maybe don’t let them advance to playoffs in their first tournament appearance. They’ll only be unrated once.
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

This will apply if you win all much higher rated players in a tournament as described in this section.
???
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A tournament committee has the right to assign an estimatedrating to an unrated player. From what I understand, that unrated player may then be treated as a rated player (fairly or unfairly), so a phrase like "unrated can't advance" doesn't apply. When the ratings get processed, the initial rating will be 0 or N/A and the ratings chairman may take the advice of the one who submits the results to adjust that player to an estimated rating.
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Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

When a player is adjusted, the same 'T' appears.
The "T" will be removed after few game

3. NEW PLAYERS
A player enters the ranking list with her/his first competition and gets a ‘T’ (temporary) rating.

3.1 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is against a player ranked
higher than the highest rated player against whom s/he achieved a win, the temporary rating
will be that of his ‘highest win’.
Example:Jean has 3 wins and 1 loss in his first tournament; the three wins are against
players ranked 1950, 1998, 2010 and his loss is against a player rated 2050, Jean’s
temporary rating will be 2010.

3.2 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is lower than her/his
highest win a median rating will be established as her/his temporary rating.
Example:Wing has wins against players rated 1145, 1070 and 1210 and a loss against a
player ranked 1100, Wing’s temporary rating will be 1155.

3.3 If a player has no losses, his temporary rating will be her/his highest win +100
3.4 If a player has no wins, his temporary rating (T) will be 100.

3.5 The process described above (3.1 – 3.4) continues until a player has 5 wins and 1
loss, or 15 wins – at which point the T is removed and a player attains a ‘regular’
rating.

3.6 Players who play against a player with a ‘T’ rating earn, but cannot lose points.
This will apply if you win all much higher rated players in a tournament as described in this section.
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Thanks! The key word is that "recommended". It did "disturbing" to the lower rated player.

Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

Advancing unrated players seems to be frowned upon, but not explicitly condemned, according to Chapter 7 of USATT Tournament Guide on Round Robins:
5. Unrated Players. Round robin play is designed to allow players to play several matches with the best player winning or advancing.
5.a. If you are running rating events and have unrated players win those events, it may be disturbing to the rated players. 
5.b. It is recommended to allow unrated players to compete in rating events but not advance if they win their group. Such limitation must be announced in the entry blank, e.g. “Unrated players may enter round robin rating events but will not be permitted to advance from the group. The rated player with the highest finish will advance.“
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Advancing unrated players seems to be frowned upon, but not explicitly condemned, according to Chapter 7 of USATT Tournament Guide on Round Robins:


5. Unrated Players. Round robin play is designed to allow players to play several matches with the best player winning or advancing.

5.a. If you are running rating events and have unrated players win those events, it may be disturbing to the rated players. 

5.b. It is recommended to allow unrated players to compete in rating events but not advance if they win their group. Such limitation must be announced in the entry blank, e.g. “Unrated players may enter round robin rating events but will not be permitted to advance from the group. The rated player with the highest finish will advance.“

5.c. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group such as a giant round robin where the preliminary groups are used to place players in later events based on their order of finish.

5.d. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group in a championship or other event if rating is not the basis for the event, e.g. women’s or age limited events. Exclusion is appropriate if it is Over 50 and under 1500, etc.
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

When a player is adjusted, the same 'T' appears.
The "T" will be removed after few game

3. NEW PLAYERS
A player enters the ranking list with her/his first competition and gets a ‘T’ (temporary) rating.

3.1 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is against a player ranked
higher than the highest rated player against whom s/he achieved a win, the temporary rating
will be that of his ‘highest win’.
Example:Jean has 3 wins and 1 loss in his first tournament; the three wins are against
players ranked 1950, 1998, 2010 and his loss is against a player rated 2050, Jean’s
temporary rating will be 2010.

3.2 If a player has wins and losses, of which the ‘lowest loss’ is lower than her/his
highest win a median rating will be established as her/his temporary rating.
Example:Wing has wins against players rated 1145, 1070 and 1210 and a loss against a
player ranked 1100, Wing’s temporary rating will be 1155.

3.3 If a player has no losses, his temporary rating will be her/his highest win +100
3.4 If a player has no wins, his temporary rating (T) will be 100.

3.5 The process described above (3.1 – 3.4) continues until a player has 5 wins and 1
loss, or 15 wins – at which point the T is removed and a player attains a ‘regular’
rating.

3.6 Players who play against a player with a ‘T’ rating earn, but cannot lose points.
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Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



Same with Canadian system, I believe.  The adjusted player will have a 'T' beside the newly adjusted rating, and the loosers to the player with the 'T' rating will not loose any points.
Sry, "T' means temporary rating in Canadian system. It is for the new player.
When a player is adjusted, the same 'T' appears.
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



Same with Canadian system, I believe.  The adjusted player will have a 'T' beside the newly adjusted rating, and the loosers to the player with the 'T' rating will not loose any points.
Sry, "T' means temporary rating in Canadian system. It is for the new player.
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Hope Larry can see this thread and clarify the rule. 
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Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

I am pretty sure they assign a rating for unrated player even they don't have rating anywhere and allow them to advance.

I don't know USATT rules much. Base on my limited knowledge, tournament director has power to give unrated player pre-rating such as league rating if they have. But they cannot advance their group in their first US tournament. Anyone know the rule, please correct me.

Originally posted by Ttunderthesun21 Ttunderthesun21 wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.



Hmm if they do visual inspection, then yeah I can kind of see how they came up with that number.  His game wasn't anything special (like nothing that jumped out), very consistent, and solid BH.  Still, felt it was a bit unfair oh well.  

That's why Westchester is such a test, you don't know who will show up every month.  
There is no written rule that players with no rating can/can not advance out of RR rated based events. It’s entirely up to the tournament director of said tournament. 
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I am pretty sure they assign a rating for unrated player even they don't have rating anywhere and allow them to advance.

I don't know USATT rules much. Base on my limited knowledge, tournament director has power to give unrated player pre-rating such as league rating if they have. But they cannot advance their group in their first US tournament. Anyone know the rule, please correct me.

Originally posted by Ttunderthesun21 Ttunderthesun21 wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.



Hmm if they do visual inspection, then yeah I can kind of see how they came up with that number.  His game wasn't anything special (like nothing that jumped out), very consistent, and solid BH.  Still, felt it was a bit unfair oh well.  

That's why Westchester is such a test, you don't know who will show up every month.  
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Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.



Hmm if they do visual inspection, then yeah I can kind of see how they came up with that number.  His game wasn't anything special (like nothing that jumped out), very consistent, and solid BH.  Still, felt it was a bit unfair oh well.  

That's why Westchester is such a test, you don't know who will show up every month.  


Edited by Ttunderthesun21 - 05/30/2019 at 11:12am
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No matter what rating conversion is,  it is unfair to other players. It is unique to Westchester. It seems the previous post said correctly and they always allow unrated person to advance by visual inspecting players or other ways.




Edited by mentortt - 05/30/2019 at 11:02am
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Yeah this kid beat me too, he's probably like 2100 USATT.  I know he came out like high 1900's after the fact, but that's due to one bad loss.  He played ALL day both days.  On paper he was like 1500, so there isn't really a way to know if he is actually unrated in the states unless you look it up.  Especially when playing all day.  
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Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:



Same with Canadian system, I believe.  The adjusted player will have a 'T' beside the newly adjusted rating, and the loosers to the player with the 'T' rating will not loose any points.
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
USATT rating system will adjust the rapidly developing player if they've gained more that 50 pts. (50-74 pts.: tier1; 75+ pts: tier2).  Ratings are then recalculated based on this adjusted rating so that you don't lose as many points to the adjusted player since the recalculation is based on the adjusted rating rather than the initial rating:
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Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
What adjustment mechanism are you talking about? Adjustment on which player?
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Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
US rating system has an adjustment mechanism after a player lost to a rapidly developing player, but Canada rating system has none. 
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so from Canadian tourney results it seems they're not underrated but then how does one explain them crossing the border and winning or advancing in so many events?

does the exchange rate between Canadian ratings and US ratings need to be changed like the USD and Canadian dollar from time to time? Embarrassed
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

hmm.. so his CAN rating is underrated

so he was a professional sand bagger!

or rapidly developing junior player... depending on who you ask hahaWink
From recent wins and losses, it does not seem like he is NOT under rated. (Edit from under to NOT under rated Smile).  Worst loss to 798 rated player, best win to 1228 rated player.
Loss:
1** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353MACKENZIE Jude1489117231317Sig
2** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353AWAD Samuel1601117220429Sig
3** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352EL MAROUK Wael122311329791Sig
4** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352MONTMINY David1590113220458Sig
5** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352XU Tian Yi79811323028-334Sig
6** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352MACKENZIE Jude1437113231305Sig
7** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352AWAD Samuel1384113253252Sig

Wins:
1** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353WATTERS-KIM Noam117241320759Sig
2** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353SAMOILA Steven117212281816-56Sig
3** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353Bourgeois Andy117245620716Sig
4** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353LIU Ethan117245420718Sig
5** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353Bourgeois Andy117245620716Sig
6** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353GHOORBIN Luv117228620886Sig
7** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353FOREST Alexis1172105886114Sig
8** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353GHOORBIN Kush1172102386149Sig
Ah!  I meant to edit previous post, but some how I quoted myself instead.  Oh well!!!


Edited by mhnh007 - 05/29/2019 at 9:46am
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Thanks for list. Jude Mackenzie is also in this tournament. He won 2000 with 0 rated. It is consistent with Canada results. From 1600-2200 those six events, it was dominated by two Canada unrated players (they didn't win 2050 and 2200. but causing enough trouble for other players). Is it fair in general? In final rating after tournament Jude: 2132. Laurent: 1981

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

From recent wins and losses, it does not seem like he is under rated.
Loss:
1** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353MACKENZIE Jude1489117231317Sig
2** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353AWAD Samuel1601117220429Sig
3** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352EL MAROUK Wael122311329791Sig
4** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352MONTMINY David1590113220458Sig
5** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352XU Tian Yi79811323028-334Sig
6** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352MACKENZIE Jude1437113231305Sig
7** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352AWAD Samuel1384113253252Sig

Wins:
1** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353WATTERS-KIM Noam117241320759Sig
2** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353SAMOILA Steven117212281816-56Sig
3** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353Bourgeois Andy117245620716Sig
4** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353LIU Ethan117245420718Sig
5** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353Bourgeois Andy117245620716Sig
6** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353GHOORBIN Luv117228620886Sig
7** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353FOREST Alexis1172105886114Sig
8** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353GHOORBIN Kush1172102386149Sig


Edited by mentortt - 05/29/2019 at 9:37am
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Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

hmm.. so his CAN rating is underrated

so he was a professional sand bagger!

or rapidly developing junior player... depending on who you ask hahaWink
From recent wins and losses, it does not seem like he is under rated.
Loss:
1** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353MACKENZIE Jude1489117231317Sig
2** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353AWAD Samuel1601117220429Sig
3** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352EL MAROUK Wael122311329791Sig
4** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352MONTMINY David1590113220458Sig
5** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352XU Tian Yi79811323028-334Sig
6** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352MACKENZIE Jude1437113231305Sig
7** Circuit Québécois Sports Experts / Donic #5352AWAD Samuel1384113253252Sig

Wins:
1** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353WATTERS-KIM Noam117241320759Sig
2** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353SAMOILA Steven117212281816-56Sig
3** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353Bourgeois Andy117245620716Sig
4** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353LIU Ethan117245420718Sig
5** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353Bourgeois Andy117245620716Sig
6** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353GHOORBIN Luv117228620886Sig
7** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353FOREST Alexis1172105886114Sig
8** Championnat junior du Québec 2019353GHOORBIN Kush1172102386149Sig


Edited by mhnh007 - 05/29/2019 at 9:17am
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

...
Westchester likes to allow unrated players to advance.  They use their estimated ratings from visual assessment which is permitted by USATT.  It is annoying when they get it wrong.  Unfortunately, nothing about the results of this practice has changed their minds.  They have been doing it for years now.

I suspect in this specific case they simply went with taking his Canadian rating and extrapolating it to USATT by whatever rule of thumb, skipping visual assessment.

Unless of course player in question was crafty enough to play dumb during assessment . Wink
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Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Question related to this Westchester tournament: why the unrated person can join playoff in rating event? 

This person joined six events. He won 1600, 1750, 1900 and in playoff 2000, 2050, 2200..
Do he has international rating? Or the rule changed? 

I think in events, his rating listed as 1530. But official list N/A.

Update: this is not the only one. It seems all 0 rated person can join playoff without any problems.




Westchester likes to allow unrated players to advance.  They use their estimated ratings from visual assessment which is permitted by USATT.  It is annoying when they get it wrong.  Unfortunately, nothing about the results of this practice has changed their minds.  They have been doing it for years now.


Edited by NextLevel - 05/28/2019 at 8:43pm
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Question related to this Westchester tournament: why the unrated person can join playoff in rating event? 

This person joined six events. He won 1600, 1750, 1900 and in playoff 2000, 2050, 2200..
Do he has international rating? Or the rule changed? 

I think in events, his rating listed as 1530. But official list N/A.


I was actually eliminated by this player in the elimination rounds of U1750

he came to the club with an entourage from Canada, so his Canadian rating was converted to USATT but there was obviously a problem with the algorithm cause he was severely underrated!
I just look up his rating, it's under 1200 CAN, so convert to 1530 US is about right.


Usually you add 200 to 500 pts for the U2000 crowd in Canada, and subtract similar amounts from O2000 Canadians to get their USATT rating. Common wisdom is 2000 is about the same level for the two rating systems. But that's not always right. I know a player with 8xx Canadian and about 1750 USATT.. Lots of U1200 Canadians are underrated when converted to USATT.
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hmm.. so his CAN rating is underrated

so he was a professional sand bagger!

or rapidly developing junior player... depending on who you ask hahaWink
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Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Question related to this Westchester tournament: why the unrated person can join playoff in rating event? 

This person joined six events. He won 1600, 1750, 1900 and in playoff 2000, 2050, 2200..
Do he has international rating? Or the rule changed? 

I think in events, his rating listed as 1530. But official list N/A.


I was actually eliminated by this player in the elimination rounds of U1750

he came to the club with an entourage from Canada, so his Canadian rating was converted to USATT but there was obviously a problem with the algorithm cause he was severely underrated!
I just look up his rating, it's under 1200 CAN, so convert to 1530 US is about right.
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There are multiple other 0 rated persons in this tournament. They can join playoff without any problems. This is system issue. Is software allow that to happen? My understanding is that rating events not allow that, but if they join Open, or age-events, they can join playoff. It was obviously not the case.

Edited by mentortt - 05/28/2019 at 4:37pm
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Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Question related to this Westchester tournament: why the unrated person can join playoff in rating event? 

This person joined six events. He won 1600, 1750, 1900 and in playoff 2000, 2050, 2200..
Do he has international rating? Or the rule changed? 

I think in events, his rating listed as 1530. But official list N/A.


I was actually eliminated by this player in the elimination rounds of U1750

he came to the club with an entourage from Canada, so his Canadian rating was converted to USATT but there was obviously a problem with the algorithm cause he was severely underrated!
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